My issues with PvP

[KusoWat]

What, do you think they are all auto attacking? Even if they aren't nailing a burst rotation, 6v1 is ridiculous for the healer to be able to heal through with ease.

That's what they pretty much have to do to not 6v1 a healer. It's ridiculous that people are doing so little damage that they are failing to 6v1 a healer.

They aren't performing that poorly, healers really are just that good. I can't fathom how you can't see that.

They are performing below the average potential of the DPS. Healers aren't invincible. You should try playing a healer. Learn the perspective of a healer. Learn the intricacies of PvP. Then play PvP at a level that isn't the basement.

If a game mode exists with no intention of balance, then that is yet another mark against this game's design.

The game mode exist for practice, it was designated as a practice mode since its inception. Practice burst so DPS can kill these supposed unkillable healers.

You are clearly being overly hostile. No rational person thinks "git good" is "giving someone facts."

Telling you that a healer is not OP and/or invincible is giving you facts.
Explaining to you that the reason people perceive otherwise is because they are lacking individually. Not so much telling people to git gud, but that they are wrong in believing healers are too strong.

I know what my burst is. It's not good enough. In dozens and dozens of hours of gameplay, I have yet to see a healer die in the Feast. I rarely see anyone die, for that matter. Just people plunking away at one another, running back when they get to 5% health to be healed to 100% with a single spell. It's out of control.

What DPS do you play, maybe I can help.

[loreleidiangelo]

I'll be frank - people are saying "git gud" because you are honestly expecting them to balance PVP around the low-skill level of play, and that has consequences and repurcussions for the highest levels of play. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect two people to have to work together on a competitive game mode to burst down a target, and I've faced considerable pressure from even just ONE player before, if that person knows what they are doing. Consider that double Fell Cleave is 1000 potency alone and interrupts casting, meaning I can't just pre-heal if I see it coming unless my timing is on point. Consider also that good WARs will stun on the lead up into it, will have Berserk up, and Full Swing/Storm's Eye unless I've purged those first. Literally the only two healer moves that can "undo" that are Essential Dignity and Benediction, so if those moves are down and I have a second player even TAPPING me, I am forced to sack Swiftcast/Lightspeed or Attunement, a 3-4 minute cooldowns to survive. Also note that other classes have just as potent burst combos and you run into a lot of issues against skilled players who know how to capitalize on that.

Look, I'm really sorry that 8v8 is a bongofest right now because of the Garo event, but that's a player issue, not a healer design issue IMO. I don't believe we should be looking to design an entire ROLE around how people at the lower echelons of skill play, because it does have ramifications when you stack it up against skilled people who know how to optimize.

[Atrayl]

I'll be frank - people are saying "git gud" because you are honestly expecting them to balance PVP around the low-skill level of play, and that has consequences and repurcussions for the highest levels of play.

Literally every other game does it, so it clearly isn't unreasonable at all. There are ways to reward skill without making the game unplayable in a PUG.

I'm just offering my advice, after 15 years of MMO PvPing, as to what to do so that this game's PvP isn't the laughing stock of the MMO world that it currently is. This community can either discuss the topic like adults, or be children about it.

[Culfinrandir]

I know what my burst is. It's not good enough. In dozens and dozens of hours of gameplay, I have yet to see a healer die in the Feast. I rarely see anyone die, for that matter. Just people plunking away at one another, running back when they get to 5% health to be healed to 100% with a single spell. It's out of control.

If you've never seen a healer die in the Feast I suggest you get an eye check or report someone using an invincibility hack. Unless the team is reasonably well coordinated & other players are protecting the healer they will, & do, die regularly. I simply cannot believe your claim that healers cannot be killed.

[loreleidiangelo]

But...healers have no damage in PVP. If a team can survive without them, then there's no reason to have them at all. You're functionally suggesting the exact same thing as deleting them from the mode entirely.

It's cool if people want that, but be upfront about it like Zojha is doing. That said, all I foresee a "no heals" mode doing is just leading to teams of like 2 PLDs spamming Clemency on 6 Fell Cleaving WARs, so there's that. Tanks would become the new "broken" without a massive overhaul to the PVP system, including separate balancing for PVP and PVE (way more than what we have now).

[Khalithar]

But...healers have no damage in PVP. If a team can survive without them, then there's no reason to have them at all. You're functionally suggesting the exact same thing as deleting them from the mode entirely.

I wouldn't say it would delete them from the mode entirely. If we must have healing, I've always been an advocate for the idea that healing should DELAY death rather than PREVENT it, there is a difference between those two concepts. I can elaborate on that point more if you want.

[Ama_Hamada]

I wouldn't say it would delete them from the mode entirely. If we must have healing, I've always been an advocate for the idea that healing should DELAY death rather than PREVENT it, there is a difference between those two concepts. I can elaborate on that point more if you want.

You can't prevent death when people go 100%-0% faster then a cast timer. Only way to prevent that is to have healing abilities ready while knowing it is coming so you can react. Again you need to be highly skilled and have so much foresight to heal in PvP in this game it is ridiculous. The server lag does not help matters.

You need to completely overhaul damage and rotations to even THINK of nerfing healing in anyway and SCH needs a buff regrdless. Clearly there is an issue here of a select few in this thread not knowing how fast jobs can deal damage in pvp, brd in particular, while actually playing healer.

Oh my friend reminded me of something, she picked off a summoner in shatter as a MCH when she saw that summoner's healer casting a DPS spell on the ice. The fact that was being done told her that summoner was free to take down from that and that is exactly what she did. The healer had no time to react and ended up fluid aura her then repose as some sort of healer revenge tactic, lol. (this is actually uploaded, neat vid btw ) You need very high awareness to be successful as a healer. Cast times are simply too long to react heal, you need to be having foresight to heal it.

[Culfinrandir]

But...healers have no damage in PVP. If a team can survive without them, then there's no reason to have them at all. You're functionally suggesting the exact same thing as deleting them from the mode entirely.

<snippety doo>

A way to do it, if people genuinely don't want healing in the current format, is to reverse the current situation. By that I mean FORCE Cleric Stance to on. It nerfs healing significantly but allows healers to still take part as they're now mainly DPS. I bet that would have people *screaming* for the current situation when a WHM obliterates half a team using Holy.

SE can't win either way. We currently have the best of a poor choice that I personally think works quite well in a game designed for PvE.

[Zojha]

I bet that would have people *screaming* for the current situation when a WHM obliterates half a team using Holy.

Mhm...no. That would have people screaming to have Holy nerfed. You know it's true.

[Cer_Elys]

Atrayl, while you do make some valid points -- healers are a very centralising force in this game's pvp, no matter low or high level -- I would like to stress a few consequences that have to be taken into consideration. It is easy for non-healers to forget that playing a healer role in pvp gives you as such an extremely large responsibility to carry, while at the same time there are not many more things in this game more grueling than having to defend your team against a group of competent dps and tanks who are out to murder you. I heavily recommend you to try healing in pvp for yourself. Directly nerfing healing output in a way that you proposed would mean that the balance regarding "rewards vs. effort" of playing a healer in ffxiv pvp would risk being destroyed. It's currently a high effort/high reward thing.

Now, if you argue that the existence of such a centralising force is bad for game balance: as has been posted in this thread SE simply had to work with the current mmo trinity of dps/tank/healer as a base. Healers in pve are crucial as the sole members of their parties to compensate for outgoing raid damage. While again, I feel that directly nerfing healing output in pvp is a bad idea, it is through other ways than such a nerf impossible to change this pve importance being directly translated into pvp without overhauling the pvp battle system itself. And realistically that will never happen. Furthermore, one might even argue that the presence of such a major influencing factor can be beneficial as it adds an extra layer to dps strategy. The playing field is equal for both teams; if killing or locking down the enemy healer is hard yet important to win, so is it for the opposing team. You will see many varying opinions regarding this on the forums as well. I do not feel that it is simply a black or white, objectively good or bad issue.

I agree with you though that in random FLs (and I assume, 8v8 Feast) the average quality of dps is horrible. As a consequence, even a moderately skilled healer can exert an extremely high influence on the outcome of a match. The problem is that I do not feel all the negative side-effects are worth it just to change this. Honestly, the very high skill gap between Frontline randoms and experienced PvPers is more at fault here. In my opinion, a lot more effort from SE's part could go towards properly educating "the masses" so that they understand how using pve rotations and the like in pvp is equal to being dead weight. Dpsing /effectively/ in pvp has a very high skill ceiling. If played properly, the majority of dps classes can (yes even solo) exert very heavy pressure on a healer when they decide to. And some, if they use cc at key points, even kill off average healers themselves without party support. This however requires at least knowing the basics of working out and practicing an effective burst rotation, lining up cooldowns plus popping them at strategic opportunities, using your utility and cc in an effective way, etc. Hence why the vast majority of players fail in applying proper pressure.

In the end, some accessible resources to teach new players pvp (and not actual bollocks like "Stone Sky Sea" or "Hall of the Novice" which help NOTHING in learning new players what is expected of their roles and utility, maximum dps rotations and so on for endgame pve content worth anything) are what is needed. That would serve much better to give the dps more weight in low-level pvp without breaking any other kind of balance.