My issues with PvP

[SuperZay]

Healing in 4vs4 is the hardest thing in this game. Not a lot of successful healers there, even the best can die 5 times per match. Heals may be strong but dps bursts are stronger.

[Khalithar]

1. I absolutely agree with this, it's certainly the worst part about PVP which is even more glaringly obvious in the feast. But smaller group PVP always puts class balance under a microscope, in 4v4 yeah 1 healer has a tough time, but in 8v8 with two it's a completely different beast and yes, healing is strong in that setting and having to sit there waiting for 4-5 stacks during culling time is the opposite of fun. I understand why the crowd is booing! I feel the same way when I see no one dying because of OP healers.

2. Yeah, I don't like the RNG in shatter either. I will grant that it definitely makes the games more unpredictable, but getting screwed by RNG is never fun at all.

3. I actually like the 3 faction PVP, if one side is too strong, the other two have the option of ganging up on them and knocking them down a peg. If two sides keep throwing themselves at each other and one side dominates, I never quite understood why they do that in any scenario.

4. I'm a bit torn on the lose points if you die thing. On the negative it makes people play very "safe" and they constantly retreat and get healed and run back and then attack and then retreat again repeat ad nauseum rather than just staying and finishing a 1v1 or fighting to the last man, again, PVP where no one ever dies is dreadfully boring, that includes healing being too strong and too much incentive to just run away. On the positive, I've won plenty of games where both sides threw themselves at a team with the lead and evened out the scores, with this mechanic it gives teams that are behind an option rather than just slowly lose a game with no recourse.

5. Agree again. Premades should have to play against other premades regardless of how long their queue is, if they want faster queues, queue solo, period.

6. I don't necessarily agree with this either. I've seen done a few things myself that helped win a game in a noticeable way. I've held off a party at seal rock at a critical node long enough for my team to come and reinforce the position so the node wasn't lost and broken a stalemate in feast by knocking off both healers from the bridge and stunning them while all their dps above died. I've also seen some pretty great tanks and healers that have used their defensive mechanics and support abilities at a really important time and saved the day, etc. The problem is there isn't much acknowledgment or ways to show off what you did. Clutch moments like that aren't reflected on a scoreboard.

[KusoWat]

PvP shouldn't be balanced around the inability for inexperienced players to burst and CC correctly. If you were to get the nerf to healing you so desire, realize that it effects your team as well and that it just becomes a slug fest of mediocre damage killing without effort.

At higher levels, even in PUGs aka solo queue, many kills are made despite this supposed overpowered healing that can get interrupted in so many varying ways. Not to mention scenarios of damage that is not heal able. Balancing should be based on higher levels of play, from the top, not the bottom.

PS: 6+ people failing to out damage a single healer is just bad tbh. Has nothing to do with them being a PUG unless being one equates to lacking common knowledge. And 4dps can easily instant gib someone from 100 -> 0.

[Khalithar]

PvP shouldn't be balanced around the inability for inexperienced players to burst and CC correctly. If you were to get the nerf to healing you so desire, realize that it effects your team as well and that it just becomes a slug fest of mediocre damage killing without effort.

There would still be effort involved if people are using their defensive cooldowns and mitigation appropriately. But slugfests where we just around killing each other sounds a lot more fun to me than what we have now.

[KusoWat]

There would still be effort involved if people are using their defensive cooldowns and mitigation appropriately. But slugfests where we just around killing each other sounds a lot more fun to me than what we have now.

General players using defensive cds??? They can barely put their abilities together to burst...

The defensive cds of dps isn't going to keep them alive.

Also, what do we have now? People are dying plenty enough as is.

[Llus]

I've been pushing for the Garo mounts this past week. I'm currently on an 18 game losing streak at 7/10 for the silver one. Feels bad man.

Anyway, I've been PvPing in MMOs for 15+ years, and these are my observations of what I think PvP in this game is doing wrong. Keep in mind that this is considering PUG vs PUG, which is the vast majority of PvP that occurs.

1. Healing is too strong/Time To Kill is too high. From what I can tell, SE didn't even try to balance healing for PvP. The numbers seem to be pulled straight from PvE, where healers need to heal through raid boss damage.

A semi-competent healer can heal through 6+ PUGgers attacking them or another player. It should be well known and should have been easy to foresee that expecting the level of coordination from a PUG that it takes to properly counter a healer is unreasonable.

It's an imbalance of responsibility: one healer vs 6+ strangers needing to coordinate burst, CC, and cooldowns. In the case of the Feast, they need to do all of this without the ability to even talk in some cases!

This is the #1 issue that sucks the fun out of PvP for me. Most encounters turn into two walls banging against each other for 10 minutes.

2. Frontlines have too much RNG. Ice and Tomelith spawns contribute too much to the outcome of the game. When the winning team gets 3 Tomeliths close to their base, it's a real punch in the gut.

3. Three-faction PvP doesn't work if people don't understand what tactics they should be using. When #3 keeps attacking #2, then the entire system breaks down and #1 just stays #1 uncontested.

4. Losing points on death creates a "dead zone" where it's not even worth trying to win anymore, because you'll just lose faster. This is most noticeable in Sieze when someone is close enough to winning. You can't even assault their Tome because you'll for sure suffer some sort of causalities in the process, and the points from your deaths will put the enemy over the top anyway.

5. If it isn't already, premades should be matched with other premades whenever possible. A premade on any side is too strong of an advantage given the other points I've made. It's a snowball effect.

6. The available game types and sizes rarely allows for individual players to make a mark on the game. Whereas other MMOs have game types where a player can feel good stealing a node or capturing the flag, Frontlines (especially Shatter) are almost entirely about moving as a group.

#1A - Healing is fine, DPS in FL usually uses PvE rotation resulting in a stun resist healer.

#1B - 6+ DPS on 1 healer should be almost an instant kill, again bad DPS - if you don't know your PvP burst you're not going to kill much of anything

#1C Very good healers in feast will almost never die (once or twice) during a match, that's just the facts of life. However, even the best healers run out of cooldowns and MP and you should be coordinating your bursts on squishy DPS, tanks that over stack and mele that pop blood for blood and extend too far into enemy lines

#2 - RNG based matches do tend to favor the "let them fight" crowd, so unless your team pays attention to the score, the turtles tend to win. Even if your team is really good; RNG can win the game. - This is part of #3

#3 see #2

#4 You also gain points for killing and if many players on your team gets fever/high early you tend to become unstoppable. This requires good DPS and good healers keeping those fevers/highs alive

#5 premades have been in existence since PvP became a thing, if you can't beat 'em; join 'em. premade groups are just as susceptible to RNG as the rest of us so it's possible to beat a premade through avoidance, gaining your own fevers/highs against stragglers and other members of the GC the premade is on and playing objectives

#6 - Nex Cross - u just got to git gud

[Ama_Hamada]

#1A - Healing is fine, DPS in FL usually uses PvE rotation resulting in a stun resist healer.

#1B - 6+ DPS on 1 healer should be almost an instant kill, again bad DPS - if you don't know your PvP burst you're not going to kill much of anything

#1C Very good healers in feast will almost never die(once or twice) during a match, that's just the facts of life. However, even the best healers run out of cooldowns and MP and you should be coordinating your bursts on squishy DPS, tanks that over stack and mele that pop blood for blood and extend too far into enemy lines

#2 - RNG based matches do tend to favor the "let them fight" crowd, so unless your team pays attention to the score, the turtles tend to win. Even if your team is really good; RNG can win the game. - This is part of #3

#3 see #2

#4 You also gain points for killing and if many players on your team gets fever/high early you tend to become unstoppable. This requires good DPS and good healers keeping those fevers/highs alive

#5 premades have been in existence since PvP became a thing, if you can't beat 'em; join 'em. premade groups are just as susceptible to RNG as the rest of us so it's possible to beat a premade through avoidance, gaining your own fevers/highs against stragglers and other members of the GC the premade is on and playing objectives

#6 - Nex Cross - u just got to git gud

This and sch healing is too weak in pvp, not too strong. Stop trying to kill healers that know what they are doing and focus more on DPS that have no defenses, like SMN, BLM, BRD, MCH..... , more so when one of those 4 overextend. Ever see how quick a BLM can go down that is not paying attention? My friends got yelled by one once. That person ended up being hated by the whole party since one of my friends explained to the BLM people where running back when that BLM stood there, being a target. Everyone was running back and the person furthest out was that BLM. I saw the video as well, you are not going to find a healer to react heal that, esp with people scattered while my friends try to figure out the most likely burst target. They went from full to half hp in one hit basically, then split seconds later, dead, any cast time heal would of not hit them off reaction.

If you can't kill someone in PvP because of healers it has to do with the following:
Lack of CC on the healer
Lack of knowledge of the burst rotation in PvP
Lack of coordination of 2+ people while ^ that is an issue
The healer is skilled and knows how to precure and predict bursts in PvP

today a mch and war (maybe a 3rd I was not sure) made a decent attempt on trying to burst me down. When I was binded and I heard that all too familiar sound of it being from a MCH, I knew what was coming next. I was ready for it, I was ready to use dissipation if needed. They gave up after I Attunement on them and backed up far enough for them to stop chasing me since I lived though the burst. Should a second MCH bursted on me on top of that I would not of lived due to being useless after healing like that as a SCH.

PvP has balance issues but healing as a whole is not one of them, also my healing potency is about 1/2 what is is in the real world, nice try on that claim.

[Atrayl]

If you can't kill someone in PvP because of healers it has to do with the following:
Lack of CC on the healer
Lack of knowledge of the burst rotation in PvP
Lack of coordination of 2+ people while ^ that is an issue
The healer is skilled and knows how to precure and predict bursts in PvP

Again, it is a fundamental design flaw and imbalance that an entire team, that cannot communicate, needs to be able to work together in perfect unison simply to be able to counter the effects of one player. Healers are too strong. Healers are too integral to a fight.

"Count healers, determine winner." It's broken and unfun.

[Ama_Hamada]

Again, it is a fundamental design flaw and imbalance that an entire team, that cannot communicate, needs to be able to work together in perfect unison simply to be able to counter the effects of one player. Healers are too strong. Healers are too integral to a fight.

"Count healers, determine winner." It's broken and unfun.

So healers need to be made useless because of a bad change decision in removing chat. Makes sense.

"Count MCH/BRD who know how to burst to determine winner" it's broken and unfun

Lets remove Black mages, summoners, and scholars while we are at it.

If you've never seen a healer die in the Feast I suggest you get an eye check or report someone using an invincibility hack. Unless the team is reasonably well coordinated & other players are protecting the healer they will, & do, die regularly. I simply cannot believe your claim that healers cannot be killed.

good Healers can't be killed by subpar DPS, just asked the 3 I dragged away from our main group to allow my team to get free kills

To the TC: In case you did not know, a single healer can't heal a 8 v8 due to the amount of CC, soon that healer gets CCed the team with them is doomed. 2 is best and 3 or more lacks damage. It has nothing to do with "more healers = more chance to win" I have solo healed 8 people matches before from the other team was so poor and lack coordination (or in the case of front line, mainly from the other 2 teams going at it with each other). Maybe you are better off complaining about the no chat?

[Khalithar]

So healers need to be made useless.

I will say straight up (and I've always been upfront about this) I personally think PVP would be better with no healing. However, if we absolutely must have healing in PVP, all I want is for a team with no healers to have just as much a chance to win as a team with healers. Now, as for how we can make that feasible, I don't know, I'm not a game designer and I don't claim to have all the answers. Nor do I think that removing healers would suddenly increase my win rate either, but I can say that I have been in plenty of situations (and I'm sure others have as well) where they only lost because the other team had healers when your's did not. If we suddenly removed healing, it would put everyone on equal footing and prevent anyone from having that advantage.