Kicked from DR Leveling because I don't slot Protect for low level dungeons?

[Magic-Mal]

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It's not like I'm telling new healers to remove Protect lol. It doesn't bug me at all to see healers using it lv15-30. But I, personally, wouldn't use it.

As the tanks and DPS, unless you're dying due to not having protect, there shouldn't be any complaints. Especially if the healer is fine.

[Miste]

That's a fine mentality for experienced players to have. However, think what you're teaching new players? They see this and then assume that 10% mitigation isn't all that much as they make their way to level 60 for the first time. Then they carry this mentality through extremes and raids, all the while the 'experienced' players are wondering why all these sprouts have so many bad habits.

You are basically saying we should not advocate or play our jobs at maximum potential because new players might misunderstand what we are doing and not play correctly because of it...that seems a bit irrational.

If players are this observant, as you are claiming, to take note of what is being said here or in-game about healers and Protect then they would also notice that healers in level 20/30-60 content always cast protect and that no one in here said not to cross class it and some even said just to put it in second or third slot.

I mean you are kinda saying that all new players cannot think logically or ask other players for confirmation before assuming how to play a job.

[Lan_Mantear]

You are basically saying we should not advocate or play our jobs at maximum potential because new players might misunderstand what we are doing and not play correctly because of it...that seems a bit irrational.

All I am trying to say is that beginning dungeons are easy for a reason. Do you really think that the majority of players spend time to explain their actions to other players? No, of course not. Without any context for player actions, new players will simply imitate what they see. Some will be able to connect the dots later in their game career, but most will not. As a evidenced by how many poor quality players we have in Cross-Party Finder.

I am not advocating against optimizing your cross class skills and game play. All I am saying is that, introducing such concepts to brand-new players do more harm than good. Let them learn how to walk first.

If you want to optimize your play style. Do it at end game, where it actually matters.

[Esp]

Cuteness overload

*squeals* Oh thank you ^^

Ahem! Right, back on topic... >.>

Snip

In all honesty, as a SCH especially which is the OP'S case, it's just much more efficient for those that want to slot Cleric first to be a viable option. Lower level dungeons don't hit as hard, plus you have a automatic healing bot that pretty much won't ever let your tank see less than 50%. The less enemies that are hitting your tank, the less damage your tank is taking, so why not?

Plus, it not a bad habit when it's ONLY the first three dungeons that it's possible to do this.

[Cylestea]

In all honesty, as a SCH especially which is the OP'S case, it's just much more efficient for those that want to slot Cleric first to be a viable option. Lower level dungeons don't hit as hard, plus you have a automatic healing bot that pretty much won't ever let your tank see less than 50%. The less enemies that are hitting your tank, the less damage your tank is taking, so why not?

Plus, it not a bad habit when it's ONLY the first three dungeons that it's possible to do this.

LIES i seen the healer MANY TIMES let me drop down to around 10% by refusing prot over c stance and letting a fairy heal before they heal me I rather a defesive boost over a healers small damage boost you get below lvl 20. really doing 3-5 dps more isnt worth almost killing your tank

[Masekase_Hurricane]

LIES i seen the healer MANY TIMES let me drop down to around 10% by refusing prot over c stance and letting a fairy heal before they heal me I rather a defesive boost over a healers small damage boost you get below lvl 20. really doing 3-5 dps more isnt worth almost killing your tank

I know I can confirm that the fairy has healed the whole run and I never left clerics once, as for copperbell I think I cast 1 or 2 cures. When I am on AST be prepared to go to 10-20% every time essential dignity is up :P As this is all I find myself doing in sastasha.

Quote

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 54
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 55
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: None
Effect of protect on tank survivability: None



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 35
Maximum coblyn damage: 38
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 17-18


Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 32
Maximum coblyn damage: 35
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 18-20

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: 3 damage (10%)
Effect of protect on tank survivability: 0-2 hits



Since tanks in Sastasha/Tam-tara/Copperbell will fall somewhere between these two scenarios, we can conclude that Protect will buy a tank between 0 and 2 extra hits.

The lower the tank's defense and HP, the closer this will be to 0.

The more damage a mob does per attack, the closer this will be to 0. Consider for example, a mob that hits a 629HP tank for 100 damage per hit. It can kill the tank with seven 100dmg hits, and it would still take seven hits if the damage were reduced as much as 10%.



Meanwhile, an AST with gear sync in Sastasha goes from dealing 37-40 damage per Malefic to 68-72, a gain of 80%-84%. This is not negligible. Expect the damage gain to increase with higher syncks.



Supporting screenshots

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect



[u]Sastasha, AST, Gear Sync[u]

Thanks for providing this Rongway, although I'm still shocked that someone had to even go this far

[Rita1989]

No cleric stance > protect there is no argument here dealing damage mitigates more damage the protect ever will and it's not like anything hits hard in low level dungeons protect is just overkill

[ManuelBravo]

if they ask politely and you refuse...then yes. If they give you a chance to prove your skills, your wiping left and right that would be a mayor yes. 10% is 10%

[Kosmos992k]

Alternately, since it's a low level dungeon, you could always just 'suck it up' and slot Protect 1st, cast it and proceed. There are all sorts of arguments about the unnecessary nature of Protect at such levels, but let's be honest, since Cleric Stance is slot 2, what else are you slotting in cross skills that will make a significant difference in run time?

Holy crap, people complain about anything these days.

[Rongway]

That's a fine mentality for experienced players to have. However, think what you're teaching new players? They see this and then assume that 10% mitigation isn't all that much as they make their way to level 60 for the first time. Then they carry this mentality through extremes and raids, all the while the 'experienced' players are wondering why all these sprouts have so many bad habits.

This is the same reason why there are so many DRKs and WARs without provoke in end-game content. It all starts with 'experienced' players show-boating how unnecessary certain skills are at lower level dungeons. Neglecting the fact that low level dungeons are designed to be easy in order to teach new players how to use their skills.

Or it shows new players that healers can contribute meaningfully to total party damage and dungeon completion time while promoting evaluation of abilities and how they really work.


The difference between a Protected and unProtected tank in Sastasha, Tam-tara, and Copperbell is a matter of literally 1-2 damage per hit (e.g., 32-35 v 34-37). If the tank has 500 HP, at 33.5 damage per hit it will take 15 Protected hits to kill him. At a rate of 35.5 damage per hit, it will take 15 unProtected hits to kill him.

The difference is a little bit bigger in Haukke Manor, where a Carpet Stain can hit a Protected tank for 85-92 per hit, unProtected 91-99 (a difference of 6-7 per hit). I've seen tanks with as much as 1400 HP (without Defiance) in there, but let's say there's a tank with 1250 HP. At 88.5 per Protected hit, it'll take 15 hits to kill him, and at 95 per unProtected hit, it'll take 14 hits to kill him.


Cleric Stance, however, increases a healer's damage numbers by a factor of 2. I don't know the SCH numbers off the top of my head, but this takes Malefic from 4×Malefic:1×Fire to 2×Malefic:1×Fire, or 2×Malefic:1×Blizzard to 1×Malefic:1×Blizzard.

So while Protect won't make the tank able to withstand any extra hits from the newbie dungeon mobs, Cleric Stance will have a noticeable effect on how long newbie dungeon mobs stay alive.