Kicked from DR Leveling because I don't slot Protect for low level dungeons?

[TaranTatsuuchi]

The other players, with lower defense, benefiting even less from Protect?
Besides, how bad can a pull really go in the first dungeons? Rhetorical. It's a bit silly to think there's some fine line where "Protect definitely could've prevented that wipe." Especially when, anecdotally, I've seen (and heard) runs where DPS don't even bother watching aggro, because everything burns fast enough that there's never any real danger.

I healed a copperbell mines once as ast...

Had a warrior tank.
After the first elevator, they grabbed the first group, proceeded to the second...
And then kept going.

At this point I thought, well, I'm not going to get to dps this pull and turned cleric stance off.

He kept going and going grabbing all the stuff all the way up to the first boss room.
While he was running I thought to myself...
I hope he pops a defensive cooldown when he stops...


We successfully did that entire pull without any deaths.
And without protect, since I had cleric as my first cross class skill.

[Chevronone]

REport for what- for using the legal in-game function? Dont be silly.

The in-game vote dismiss option gives you 4 choices to pick as the reason for the kick:

1. AFK
2. Offline
3. Harassment
4. Cheating

Which option would you suggest be selected in this specific case? Difference in "play style" doesn't exist as a choice to warrant the "legal in-game function." Are you advocating players should lie than?

[Saito_S]

The in-game vote dismiss option gives you 4 choices to pick as the reason for the kick:

1. AFK
2. Offline
3. Harassment
4. Cheating

Which option would you suggest be selected in this specific case? Difference in "play style" doesn't exist as a choice to warrant the "legal in-game function." Are you advocating players should lie than?

They're referring to the fact that, a while back in a thread about vote-kicking and what is actually "justified", a GM said that "differences in playstyle" CAN be a legit reason for someone to get kicked, and that GM's will sometimes be hesitant to step in an penalize the kickers in that kind of situation, because they don't want to wade too far into the muck of parsing and policing disagreements between players. At least, when nothing that is a CLEAR violation of specific rules has occurred.

I can understand their position to some extent. It's a difficult thing to balance. Some would say they should lean more toward being more aggressive and specific with the rules for what is and isn't an acceptable reason to kick. I think if they did so, there'd be advantages and disadvantages vs. how it is now.

I don't have the thread handy and don't recall what to search for to find it; I'm sure someone could dig it up, though.

Anyway: I was sort of hedging my responses for a while, because I haven't healed much lately and didn't have the ability to do any testing or maths (I was mostly posting during downtime at work yesterday), but Rongway's breakdown, supported by others as well, makes it pretty clear that CS beats out Protect in terms of the impact it has on the run, by a LOT, in the starter dungeons. So I feel like I'm back to my original stance: not only is insisting on Protect silly, but CS is actually much better for the run anyway.

Now, I'll still say that if I'm in Satasha and the healer wants to cast Protect and do the swap thing, that's fine. If they cast Protect and don't swap, and just don't have CS at all... eh. It's the starter dungeons, so I wouldn't raise a stink about it. But now knowing all the facts, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to someone that they DO keep Cleric's on them for these dungeons, and why, if it seemed appropriate to do so. I'm certainly not going to bother with this swapping routing when I'm the healer in those 3 instances, though.

Re: getting kicked over a Protect argument, rather than just casting it to stay in the run... I dunno, I find myself agreeing with those who said they'd almost rather be kicked in that situation. If someone is going to stubbornly refuse to acknowledge objective reality, and be so petty about it as to kick their healer over it (knowing that you might have to wait a while for another one), then I'm not sure I want to party with them. If the Vote Dismiss goes through, then either at least 2 members of the party are buddies, in which case I'd have 2 people against me in any further disagreements that arose, or if none of them know each other, then one person who is adamantly and hilariously against healers not casting Protect in Copperbell decided it was worth dismissing me over it, and someone else went along with it.

And frankly, if the alternative occurred - they asked for Protect, I said no and explained why, and they took the explanation in and went Oh ok, I didn't know that, but now I do! Then hey! Knowledge has been spread! Maybe they're newbies who just assume Protect is absolutely necessary for all content (not an unreasonable assumption when you're new), and now I've had a chance to get them to start thinking critically about situational skill usage. I'd consider that worth slowing down the run by a minute or two.

[Adire]

Really don't understand why some players advocate using Protect so hard in any dungeon prior to like Stone Vigil. One extra cast of Ruin in the time it takes to switch skills around would be more valuable. Eos or Selene are going to be solo healing 90% of the time with or without Protect.

[Altena]

Really don't understand why some players advocate using Protect so hard in any dungeon prior to like Stone Vigil. One extra cast of Ruin in the time it takes to switch skills around would be more valuable. Eos or Selene are going to be solo healing 90% of the time with or without Protect.

I absolutely agree, however in order to keep the peace and shut the other party members up in this case, doing a switch is the easiest option.

[Adire]

I absolutely agree, however in order to keep the peace and shut the other party members up in this case, doing a switch is the easiest option.

I wouldn't switch to appease foolishness. They'd just have to kick me so I could get into a party that hopefully appreciates efficiency or they'd have to just deal with it. Hopefully the situation would serve as a wake up call to them.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

For SCH and AST:
I slot Cleric Stance first. Protect is nice and all but, especially in low lvl dungeons, I spend more time dpsing than healing. Since that's the case, its better for the party if my dps doesn't suck and the mobs die faster IMO.

Protect comes next because, even though level 20 as AST is when I can res in combat, and having that res be instant is really nice, death at those low levels is virtually unheard of barring standing in bad. Protect is more valuable than an instant res at those levels IMO.

Swiftcast comes next in the level 30 slot. At level 30+ death has a higher chance of occurring, particularly when you get new people and the dungeons add new mechanics for them to learn.

Stoneskin goes in the level 40 slot. As much as I'd like it sooner, the other stuff is more useful IMO.

Surecast goes in the final slot because... well I find little use for it and the alternatives aren't much better. But its good to have on those rare occasions it can be useful


For my WHM however:

Blizzard II gets slotted first. Why? Because at low levels and when soloing its nice having a spammable aoe, even if its a piss poor one.

Swiftcast goes in the level 20 slot. Why not first? Because I can't res in combat till level 28 and can't Stoneskin II till 50, and those are my primary uses for it.

Eye for an Eye goes in at the level 30 slot. Why? Because from those levels on, especially with new people, the dungeons can be a bit harder and the cooldown is more valuable.

Virus comes next because the debuff is handy to have but not vital.

Surecast is last again for the same reasons as AST and SCH... and also because WHM only has Physick and Ruin I as alternatives. -_-


I see little to no value in slotting Protect before Cleric Stance as a healer. It's also worth noting that even Conjurers get Cleric Stance before Protect.

[Platinumstorm]

I also do cleric stance and was insulted for not being able to cast prot for the lowest level dungeon in the game.

[LalaRu]

Get a long breath, and read:

Low level duties makes me keep cleric stance full time or else I aggro everything at first heal no matter how the tank is good.

then

People on low level dituies complain about missing protect because they are no healers they don't have never played healer and they don't even know how protect works but they complain about it because they are used to see it.

Heck, even if protect goes nerfed, and does plain nothing, and it is only some pixels in your buff bar, still people will complain if you don't cast it. This says it all.

[Risvertasashi]

and does plain nothing, and it is only some pixels in your buff bar, still people will complain if you don't cast it.

Ah, a fellow PvPer?