More Customize Skill

[dragonseth07]

ur talking as if all the fight were tank and spank, how about a fight that has high raid wide aoe, that would need u to be spec to defensive, or a fight with waves and waves of adds that would require TP/MP reduction, or fight that has high movement that would benefit shortcast, there is no correct or best spec if the fights were design with mix and match mechanics.

True, but then there is a best spec per fight, and you're expected to switch to that before the fight.

WoW's system in Warlords was exactly this. There were talents for different situations, and it was expected that you change spec on a per-fight basis. At that point, your character no longer had a build. Your build was every talent based on what you fought.

[Shurrikhan]

A realistic one? Building "my way" only ever works in MMO's before you start playing with other people seriously. People want online games to play like single player ones, but they can't. At some point, your allies expect you to play well, and that translates to very few options.

This is such a overly generalized argument that it's hard to tell where to even start in debunking its particular links. Yes, overall, people are easily led towards cookie cutter specs when they have little reason to or intelligence by which to experiment with other builds, when the developers split talent series across multiple metas yet only really reward one of them (the "raid" meta; PvP, open-world, etc., be damn), when developers cannot determine how they wish to balance general compensations or capabilities (such as AoE vs. ST, burst vs. sustained dps), and/or when the developers don't do a good job of balancing those choices.

Yes, making a customization that allows for more than a few of its choices to be viable requires specific balancing, actual validation of more than just one gameplay type (e.g. "the raid"), and a community who actually likes to experiment and explore. XIV thus far will probably miss every one of those parameters. But that is a failing of the developer and the product, not of the overall concept of customization. (Were it a problem with the concept itself, the moment the "gimmick" of reduced LB build rates is removed, jobs performing within 1% of each other in theory would be taken or excluded accordingly, until SE effectively streamlines us into just 3 possible classes in order to compensate.)

[dragonseth07]

snip

My statement was generalized because I have played countless MMO's over the years, and every single goddamn one runs the same course.

At the start, and in early levels, everyone loves building their character and exploring options. Eventually, the playerbase gets skilled enough to find what builds and strategies are better than others. The meta forms and stabilizes, only changing with balance patches.

Player customization is a hollow promise.

[MagiusNecros]

A realistic one? Building "my way" only ever works in MMO's before you start playing with other people seriously. People want online games to play like single player ones, but they can't. At some point, your allies expect you to play well, and that translates to very few options.

More like I see a toxic hive mentality of "our way is the only way". XIV as it is offers little to no customization. Only offers flatline linear gear progression. Clearly evident when every fight is scripted. Devs themselves are so against customization they deliberately decrease LB gauge acquisition if multiple players play the same role/job that is outside standard conditions in preformed parties. And the cross class system in itself is a complete joke.

Pitiful. But I fear the expansion and whatever life XIV has will remain the same with linear progression and it's tomestones and tokens format. Tedious and tiresome. Story's okay though!

[Bourne_Endeavor]

More like I see a toxic hive mentality of "our way is the only way". XIV as it is offers little to no customization. Only offers flatline linear gear progression. Clearly evident when every fight is scripted. Devs themselves are so against customization they deliberately decrease LB gauge acquisition if multiple players play the same role/job that is outside standard conditions in preformed parties. And the cross class system in itself is a complete joke.

Pitiful. But I fear the expansion and whatever life XIV has will remain the same with linear progression and it's tomestones and tokens format. Tedious and tiresome. Story's okay though!

That is not toxicity, but simple pragmatism. If it can be mathematically proven one stat or skill customization is superior, you refusing to adapt is pure stubbornness. It's akin to arguing Dragoons should max out SkS or White Mage shouldn't bother with accuracy even if they intent to DPS. You can do it, but you're only hurting yourself and your raid group.

[Malzian]

More like I see a toxic hive mentality of "our way is the only way". XIV as it is offers little to no customization. Only offers flatline linear gear progression. Clearly evident when every fight is scripted. Devs themselves are so against customization they deliberately decrease LB gauge acquisition if multiple players play the same role/job that is outside standard conditions in preformed parties. And the cross class system in itself is a complete joke.

Pitiful. But I fear the expansion and whatever life XIV has will remain the same with linear progression and it's tomestones and tokens format. Tedious and tiresome. Story's okay though!

But it's been shown time and time again that in any pretty much every MMO that any customization 'choices' you are given are simply illusions of control. Eventually there will arise a theorycrafted, mathematically proven meta of which skills are optimal for your chosen class. Once that comes about, with very little exception, if you arn't conforming to that build than you are shunned out of group content because you will only make things harder for everyone else.

Cooperative games like this are entirely social endeavors, within such systems societal norms will always form which govern what is acceptable and unacceptable for people to do. Your choices will always come under judgement and critique by your peers. If you don't care about that, then that's fine, you're free to stand outside the norms and ignore what people think, and I'm sure eventually you'll find a group willing to do things with you.

However, for the sake of balancing and presenting an even playing field for everyone involved, to make the system as fair and equitable to all... they need to limit your choices. They need to push you into certain paradigms and playstyles, both for the sake of their philosophy in creating fair and balanced content that is accessible to all as well as not creating circumstances that push one class or one skill set into obsolecence and cutting out all the players that love and only play that one class or know how to use that skill set to its best potential.

[Nexxus]

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

Game like Guild Wars 2, Wildstar and others like them, you can have a custom-like, just make it so you can set 15~ skills over 40+ (and set 10 more passives traits), depending on what you're are doing you're gonna change the skill set you've made. And make it so some skills can depend on your playstyle.

Actually i'm really tired having so much skills, every classes have almost the same type of skills (combo / dot / debuff / etc...), why not reducing the skillbars while having more choice for different gameplay ?
Giving also "Stance" to switch bars.

Also, like i said, there's to much skills per job... with the addition of pvp skills and the lack of switching skillbar UI....

But all of that would required probably a revamp of stats weight and stuff.

[Belhi]

Game like Guild Wars 2, Wildstar and others like them, you can have a custom-like, just make it so you can set 15~ skills over 40+ (and set 10 more passives traits), depending on what you're are doing you're gonna change the skill set you've made. And make it so some skills can depend on your playstyle.

Actually i'm really tired having so much skills, every classes have almost the same type of skills (combo / dot / debuff / etc...), why not reducing the skillbars while having more choice for different gameplay ?
Giving also "Stance" to switch bars.

Also, like i said, there's to much skills per job... with the addition of pvp skills and the lack of switching skillbar UI....

But all of that would required probably a revamp of stats weight and stuff.

GW2, Wildstar and other games have customisation as you say but in group content, particularly difficult group content, the number of viable builds is actually pretty limited. In the end you don't have many choices if you want to do the content effectively and not be carried.

Yoshi P has said that he would prefer to spend the development time that would be taken creating and balancing that type of customisation on making new jobs with completely different mechanics and themes to allow diversity of play styles. In that regard I actually tend to agree. I would prefer to get a new Job than customisation for an existing one.

[Lycieus]

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

Even if this were true, it has become a lazy response used to shut down all conversation.

Customization is possible, particularly if the choices only affect utility a la guild wars 2 or WoW's lower tier talent choices. The only places where there is a "best" choice is where it directly affects dps, and even then sometimes there is enough leeway that you can pick whatever.

[RLofOBFL]

YES PLZ....cough um I mean I agree heavily, indeed.