Integrating Crafting and Gathering. Ideas?

[Solarra]

Snip

Thank you for taking the time to explain, I understand what you mean now and I completely agree with you, but in the case of integrating say, gathering and battle I'm not sure what can be done.
It would be broken to let us switch from gather to battle class with all cooldowns reset, or from battle to a gathering class with full GP. So, if they put gathering nodes in dungeons for example, we'd have to go back once it was cleared because nobody is going to want to wait around for that. If they designed a dungeon so a gatherer or crafter was necessary to progress, it would mean longer queues and a lot of work on the present system, so I can't see that happening.

If a gatherer or crafter gave a bonus, like unlocking an extra area, it might work. Eg. a miner could chip through a wall in a dungeon to open a new area or an alchemist could make a potion that lets you sneak past an invulnerable mob, but the rewards have to be worth the effort and I think DF groups who find themselves without the necessary gatherers/crafters would probably complain.
Because of the class system and the need to switch gear, integrating gather and crafting objectives alongside battle would require communication and cooperation, two things FFXIV players aren't used to or good at (remember Diadem?).

Making crafting guilds matter...

I like these ideas. The one thing every new player in my FC comments on if they get into crafting, is the crafting questlines and the guild masters, and so far everyone has loved them.
I was so disappointed Ishgard didn't have a Guild Hall or it's own master crafters, despite people wearing clothes/gear that was markedly different from most of the gear in ARR.
Expanding on the guilds and making them more relevant would be something I'd like to see.

[Niwashi]

For me, probably the easiest help to "integration" 1.x gave was that I didn't need to make a new gear set every few levels

As a crafter, I like having better gear to make every few levels. That's what I took up crafting for in the first place. I want a steady stream of stuff that I can make which is actually useful in my own gameplay. It's boring to make stuff just to sell it, or to make stuff to turn in (or worse yet, make stuff just to destroy it again if you're leveling desynth as well). I hate leveling just for the sake of leveling alone. I'm leveling it in order to make my own gear and supplies, so I want plenty of chances to do so along the way.

And for crafting and combat classes alike, when I level up, my biggest reward is seeing what new pieces of gear that unlocks for me. (Well, it usually is, anyway, except in a few cases, where an important new skill is unlocked.) It's rather disappointing when I level up and realize there's nothing new at that level. It hardly seems like leveling at all in those cases.

I will agree it's hard on inventory space, though.

[RVallant]

'm leveling it in order to make my own gear and supplies, so I want plenty of chances to do so along the way.

And for crafting and combat classes alike, when I level up, my biggest reward is seeing what new pieces of gear that unlocks for me.

'm leveling it in order to make my own gear and supplies, so I want plenty of chances to do so along the way.

And for crafting and combat classes alike, when I level up, my biggest reward is seeing what new pieces of gear that unlocks for me.

I'm somewhat 'new' having returned to the game again, and this looks to be the biggest problem with gathering/crafting for me at the moment. Your battle class will generally outpace the crafting rather easily, I mean by the time I finished the MSQ to get to other areas in order to start gathering I was already pushing level 15+.

Having done all the crafting from 1-15 immediately in one go (and that was a bit silly, I burnt myself out there) I found I had, well, nothing to make except maybe a sword and more gathering/crafting gear. The Novice Hall stuff is superior to anything I could make in the 15-20 range (and earlier), so I'm chomping at the bit to catch up with the crafting levels in order to make something I can use that isn't given for free. (Oh and dungeon drops supplemented the Novice gear quite nicely too!)

The other thing is that because all the crafting classes seem to be inter-dependent on materials, I can't really focus on one or two alone and sort of run away with it. Like, initially I was looking at Armourer and blacksmithing, but I need wood (Carpenter) and leather (Leatherworker) and then I'm dealing with brass (Goldsmith) and so I'm constantly switching and... well, ok I've had fun, I've got myself a shiny new sword, which I'll outlevel in two seconds, but it seems a ton of work and time to supplement your battle/magic levelling.

Maybe I'm approaching it the wrong way though, I don't know. It feels like Crafting is almost brilliant for getting your alts up rather than the main class? At least in terms of effort and whatnot, but that tells me (rightly or wrongly) that it isn't really newbie-friendly and accessible in the way some people might want to approach the classes, which is to say they'd like to be self-sufficient while keeping pace with the story/battling classes. -Again, it may be my own playstyle hindering me here, I don't rush leves or anything, but even so. :P

As for ideas, I have none. I just wanted to put forth my limited experience on the matter, if it would help any. >_>

[Niwashi]

Having done all the crafting from 1-15 immediately in one go (and that was a bit silly, I burnt myself out there) I found I had, well, nothing to make except maybe a sword and more gathering/crafting gear. The Novice Hall stuff is superior to anything I could make in the 15-20 range (and earlier), so I'm chomping at the bit to catch up with the crafting levels in order to make something I can use that isn't given for free. (Oh and dungeon drops supplemented the Novice gear quite nicely too!)

Yeah, some of the stuff that SE has added to make it easier for new players to "catch up" quickly has put a real damper on low-level crafting. The gear from the Novice Hall from patch 3.2 has outclassed a couple tiers of crafted armor (except for the hat and belt), and then the weathered accessories from patch 3.3 outclassed the first couple tiers of crafted jewelry.

Though I'm well past that point on my main, I've lately been spending more of my attention on a recent alt who is currently at that stage (highest combat class level 18 LNC, and DoH levels in the 13-23 range except for CUL which is lagging behind since it's not linked to the others by inter-dependent materials or gear to make for them). And yeah, it seems like at that point, the majority of the crafting is for the crafting and gathering classes themselves.

[Shurrikhan]

As a crafter, I like having better gear to make every few levels. That's what I took up crafting for in the first place. I want a steady stream of stuff that I can make which is actually useful in my own gameplay. It's boring to make stuff just to sell it, or to make stuff to turn in (or worse yet, make stuff just to destroy it again if you're leveling desynth as well). I hate leveling just for the sake of leveling alone. I'm leveling it in order to make my own gear and supplies, so I want plenty of chances to do so along the way.

And for crafting and combat classes alike, when I level up, my biggest reward is seeing what new pieces of gear that unlocks for me. (Well, it usually is, anyway, except in a few cases, where an important new skill is unlocked.) It's rather disappointing when I level up and realize there's nothing new at that level. It hardly seems like leveling at all in those cases.

I will agree it's hard on inventory space, though.

I guess to put this in perspective, just as my experience as a gamer, I'd prefer to be have a larger range of both opportunity and leniency, as much as that might sound paradoxical. In other words, I like having new gear to make (or, as below, upgrade) every few levels; I just find it unituitive that just because a piece of gear is better, say wool over linen, every player develops a wool allergy until precisely the required level that allows them to equip it. They shouldn't receive it's full benefit beneath that, sure (or to put it another way, the gear shouldn't hold them back when their skills match its quality, but neither will they fill it out beneath that, nor will it fulfill them above it), but it shouldn't somehow not be clothing.

For instance, let's take an old 1.x forum idea of composite items, in which the near finished components (removed later in 1.x) retained a portion of their added quality, rather than solely adding to the chance of the final product being upgraded to HQ state (in other words, each item could "HQ" in a variety of ways, by part in addition to gestalt). But, let's take that further. You can now attempt to replace pieces of already completed gear, or add atop it. You have a leather jerkin that you want to turn into scale mail? Add scales atop it. There may be restrictions, or certain parts may need to be removed (very successfully, in order not to damage the whole) to make space for the new parts, but you can upgrade most items.

The issue with this would be a return to the 1.x crafter item bloat, especially in the hands of poor crafters (who might make the wrong sub-item, such as a body for a shoe when intending to make a boot, and now needing to wait until they have the ingredients for the rest of the shoe in order not to waste the sub-item made in error), and additional steps (which make crafting more involved, and more exp-efficient per raw material, but far less immediate). That first bit can be mitigated through intuitive UI, but the second is a point of preference (though it too may be mitigated through something alike to "quick-crafting", in this case "whole crafting").

At the same time though, by returning to "optimal level" requirements in place of hard requirements, you're not stripped naked when you continue leveling a level 12 crafter and only have your 18+ gear left after spring cleaning. (And, *evil villain hand kneading* the added inventory requirements for making the intermediate components gives me an excuse to introduce crafting tables, on which you can temporarily store and easily share materials, which I might later integrate into camp/tent functionality).

[Shurrikhan]

As for ideas, I have none. I just wanted to put forth my limited experience on the matter, if it would help any. >_>

It's always helpful to be reminded of the pre-endgame stages of the game (especially by someone who's actually taken interest in crafting in a timely, DoW/M-matched fashion), and to see how they've changed.

One idea I'd seen from other games is the idea that crafting should play a more vital part in gear acquisition, not just by crafting your own items from scratch, but by being able to make alterations, and more meaningful repairs. In turn, all these auxiliary uses should also give reasonable crafting experience, making it all the easier to keep up with your combat uses.

Other, even more common solutions include by-material crafting proficiency or long-spanned materials, allowing a given item or resource or hunting ground to last a longer number of levels because material groups overlap, so long as proficiency is sufficient. More importantly, a crafter can go dormant for some amount of time, skipping a material in the time that his crafting has fallen behind his combat class progression, but easily return to work during a later material. If he has kept up, the transition into the new material goes quicker, but even if he has not, he quickly reaches nearly the output within the given material.