Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Sylve]

As an example of this, at any given time I can go into party finder and find FCs advertising to get you any clear on any content for a price... By your definition that player who paid for the clear and died in the corner at the start of the fight would still be classified as 'good' because the content was cleared.

Actually, by my own definition, that player who died in a corner failed a mechanic and got carried. Thus i describe him as being bad. My previous posts (That no one ever seems to actually read) allude to that. Failing mechanics makes you bad. Even if you did it intentionally to secure an easy victory on the backs of overgeared mercs.
If you failed, but are willing to learn to beat the mechanic, you are not bad, you are learning.

I have to disagree with your assertion, because the post you made JUST before this one:



you JUST wrote this. The problem is, as I was trying to articulate, your PARTY produced enough damage to complete the duty. A DPS producing 1/3rd the DPS of the other DPS in the party, less than the Tank or the Healer is not 'minimally good' they are disgracefully bad.

In one example, the player is failing the mechanic and not participating while expecting others to clear it for them. That makes them bad.

In the other example, Those players are actively participating (unskilled or undergeared, combination of both, it doesn't actually matter), it's just taking them a long time to clear, as their combined output is only just sufficient to clear the duty before time out.
This makes them minimally good, as in, the absolute minimum of skill/gear required to achieve a clear in which they actively participated.

I'm sorry if the distinction wasn't clear enough.



Wonderful, I've hit post limit. Lol.

[Nixxe]

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

Despite never concerning myself with what other players are doing as long as we aren't wiping, I've managed to never have a dungeon take anywhere near 90 minutes. Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic and I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who just wants to auto attack the entire the dungeon, unless they're trying to troll the group.

[Taika]

Despite never concerning myself with what other players are doing as long as we aren't wiping, I've managed to never have a dungeon take anywhere near 90 minutes. Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic and I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who just wants to auto attack the entire the dungeon, unless they're trying to troll the group.

I've seen a SCH /follow tank and drink coffee.



But yeah I guess they were doing their part good enough, right...

The example of 90 mins was about if DDs and tanks would play at the same level than the SCH here in this example. But somehow only healers get defended when they decide to do something like this.

[Aramina]

I main a healer so I don't have a ton of experience running with other healers in dungeons... but on the rare occassion I dps I don't really care what the healer does (I do wonder what they are doing... or not doing but I wouldn't kick someone over it). THAT SAID, honestly.... how can you stand it? I would be bored absolutely to tears if I just stood there casting a heal every 30 seconds or so... how do you keep from losing your collective minds just standing there for 90% of the time.

[Syll]

Actually, by my own definition, that player who died in a corner failed a mechanic and got carried. Thus i describe him as being bad. My previous posts (That no one ever seems to actually read) allude to that. Failing mechanics makes you bad. Even if you did it intentionally to secure an easy victory on the backs of overgeared mercs.
If you failed, but are willing to learn to beat the mechanic, you are not bad, you are learning.

I have to disagree with your assertion, because the post you made JUST before this one:

If it wasn't acceptable to take 85+ minutes to clear a dungeon, SE would set the bar lower.
Once again, if you cleared it, even if it took you to the very last second to do it, makes you minimally good. Or perhaps 'viable' would be a better word? Your party produced enough damage and Healing to kill all the things within the allotted time. Congrats. You've achieved the minimum possible standard to finish the duty.

you JUST wrote this. The problem is, as I was trying to articulate, your PARTY produced enough damage to complete the duty. A DPS producing 1/3rd the DPS of the other DPS in the party, less than the Tank or the Healer is not 'minimally good' they are disgracefully bad.

You should not expect your allusions to be countenanced when your explicit text (posted immediately prior) affirms my argument.

[Clethoria]

Pages and pages of the same back and forth argument that's been done several times over.

It's either this, casual vs hardcore, general whining, or booty butt cheeks. Whenever I see Dev Tracker, the most activity seems to come from the JP/EU side. I wonder, just what it is they're talking about over there that can garner more attention or is this a sign that the English speaking devs are saying they don't care, nothing will change and all this trash talk should be put to rest.

Forward and back and forward and back and then go forward and back of "No I'm right you're wrong!" and since nobody wants to read 16 and counting pages of it, it starts anew with someone who skimmed the first and decided to post. Can anyone not just come to an understanding that the vocal minority of the forums isn't going to affect the people having fun in game? There is no push for it, so the same 4-5 people chasing each other's tails in a circle is going to remain as such.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...
It is not the frist time I've at 5% HP when healer notice it an heal me because was too busy DPSing.
...

Well.
For AST in particular, they've got a skill on a 40(60) second cooldown that heals more the less hp the target has. Essential Dignity.

There's been many times I've let the tank drop low, and with how the server works, casted a Benefic 2 and weaved in Essential Dignity as Benefic 2 finished.

The server sees the Essential Dignity trigger at the health value before Benefic 2's effect.
Thus there's a very large burst heal.

When doing this, I typically dps until the point I feel the incoming damage is enough to drop their hp below the threshold I feel safe at depending on how the tank is doing.
At which point I drop off cleric, benefic 2 and essential dignity. I typically follow that up by refreshing my regen/shields and see how their hp is doing.

If it seems good enough, It's time to get back to dps.

[randysquirrel]

If a Tank actively stops hitting things, they're plain bad. If a DPS stopped using skills, they're no longer fulfilling their primary role.

No-one has a "primary" function. Everyone is there to work together to ensure the run is as smooth as possible. Why would tanks have any stance, if by default there are always to stay in tank stance, spamming aggro combo? Why do DDs have any abilities to reduce aggro or offer support, if they are never to use them? Why would brd have any support songs?

Because it is implicit that everyone should try to use everything at their disposal, as efficiently as possible, to get the clear. healer dps-ing is just another thing that falls under this umbrella. You can argue all day long that you shouldn't HAVE to help out with dps, as it isn't your primary function. The same way I could argue I shouldn't HAVE to apoc someone that's about to take unnecessary damage, a smn shouldn't HAVE to rez someone, brd shouldn't HAVE to play ballad for a healer that hasn't maximised their mp efficiency, or whatever else. But we do, because we are working together.

Your team will still be able to clear expert roulette (they really need to change the name of this roulette, it is still laughably easy without anyone bothering to do much at all), but for any more coordinated content, you are forcing your team to carry you by not utilising all of the support available to you. Healer's support is in the form of a small, but not insignificant, amount of dps during healing downtime.

Honestly... how hard is it to pop cleric and chuck out three dots lol. even that is far from what a healer CAN achieve, but me, personally, I would never say a healer is doing too little dps, but one doing none at all just gives the impression they cba

remember that vid of that ast solo healing a12s... even he managed to chuck out a few dots here and there, making the feat even more impressive than it already was. and people here defending it is too difficult to use a dot in expert roulette smh

[CaptainLagbeard]

Yes and No...

If the healer is failing at healing because they're too busy DPSing, and it happens multiple times, I'd say there's valid reason to start thinking about a kick...

But just for throwing in some DPS while healing isn't required, nobody should be mad at that.

[Zojha]

Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic [...]

I'm merely pointing out the flaws in other people's criteria on what is acceptable behavior and what is not. And all I did to that end was to apply it to DPS as well. Nothing more, nothing less. And doing so leads to results I find undesirable.

Luckily, most people I meet in the game actually do not use that criterion but rather use the one I personally proposed, which is that you should always strive to do something productive and ideally efficient regardless of role. As such, my dungeons thankfully do not take anywhere near 90 minutes either. Naturally, I find that criterion vastly superior to the one of duty completion as a result. But for some reason, other people don't, which I find both surprising and disturbing.