Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Watachy]

Also I don't get why people judge the players instead of their actions.
Doing nothing is bad/lazy.
Doing overheal is bad/lazy.
Being lazy is bad.
If you're not dpsing and your party members don't drop like flies, you're most likely doing one of the above. Which is not "minimal good", it's just plain bad.

Insert ~Apply cold water to that burn~ meme

[Lambdafish]

In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

[Sylve]

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

./sigh
My first post. Which clearly hasn't been read properly. Funnily enough, the attitude i have towards healing is strikingly similar to those who keep trying to portray me as having the "I REFUSE TO DPS WHILE HEALING" attitude.
Maybe people should actually read more than the first lines of a post.

Personally, I spend the entire run frantically spamming every heal in my arsenal in a half hearted attempt to keep the party alive through massive overpulls while standing in the fire and forgetting that cooldowns exist.

When I'm not running out of MP healing idiots, I like to take long walks off short piers.



Even in other games now, theres a focus on Healers being Healers as a secondary role to providing DPS.
Its actually why i like AST more than SCH or WHM.
As an AST, i spend my free time between heals setting up the biggest damage boosts i can for the party. If the Tank is good enough (Read: Can take more than 3 seconds to go from 100 - dead), Then I'll throw in some DoTs and maybe a nuke here and there.
Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

Personally, I've been wishing that Bards had a Regen Song. It would be awesome to be able to support a Healer by reducing their burden enough that they felt more comfortable dropping some nukes.

I would also love to see Dancer as a right and proper Support Class (with enough healing power to dedicate itself to healing if it wanted to, or to focus on damage dealing) whose playstyle revolved around doing DPS while healing and buffing the party. It could be a lot of fun to play a Job like that.

TL;DR
I joked about needing to spam heals and then went on to describe that not only do i DPS while healing, but that i would also support and enjoy a dedicated healer job whose primary role was to deal damage while healing.

Seems you really like strawmans.

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicked it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

Neither of those were part of your original post.

like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was "minimal good"? Never ever.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

[Cinno]

The fact that they're clearing content makes then a minimally good player. Just good enough to get by.

This is extremely bad logic. Doing the 'just good enough to get by' doesn't make them good. It makes them Passable. Students don't bring home D's on tests and get told "You did just good enough to get by! You're such a good student!" Doing just enough to pass, is mediocre at best. And as a community, we shouldn't strive for mediocrity.

[Sylve]

This is extremely bad logic. Doing the 'just good enough to get by' doesn't make them good. It makes them Passable. Students don't bring home D's on tests and get told "You did just good enough to get by! You're such a good student!" Doing just enough to pass, is mediocre at best. And as a community, we shouldn't strive for mediocrity.

Clearly you don't live in Australia, where schools are discouraged from using letter grades on schoolwork for fear of hurting the feelings of the other kids who didnt do so well.

You are correct that we shouldn't STRIVE for mediocrity. But you're playing an MMO, Not everyone is going to be playing as seriously as you clearly are.

Some people strive for perfection. Others are content to be merely passable. People are different. You will encounter 'casual' players who don't play with a bleeding edge progression mindset. Just accept that there will be times when your run will take a few minutes more than others.

I'm not telling you to accept it as the norm.
I'm only asking you to tolerate those who aren't as good as others you play with, as long as you can still clear the content with those players, does it really matter? A win is a win. A dead boss will drop the same loot if killed 1 second before hard enrage as it would if you had killed it 10 seconds after engagement.

If its going too slowly for YOUR taste, you are actually free to leave the duty yourself and try your luck on the next DF group.

DPSING as a healer is part of their job, as i already said the game has been designed this way and if you want an ingame-clue try the hall of novice.

Except the Novice Hall doesn't say that.
The Novice Hall simply informs a potential new Healer that when they're not required in their primary role (Party hp full etc), they can in fact apply some DPS.

Essentially, the game is telling you that its ok to help DPS, But Healing comes first.

Being encouraged to do a thing is not the same as that thing being enforced.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...
It is not the frist time I've at 5% HP when healer notice it an heal me because was too busy DPSing.
...

Well.
For AST in particular, they've got a skill on a 40(60) second cooldown that heals more the less hp the target has. Essential Dignity.

There's been many times I've let the tank drop low, and with how the server works, casted a Benefic 2 and weaved in Essential Dignity as Benefic 2 finished.

The server sees the Essential Dignity trigger at the health value before Benefic 2's effect.
Thus there's a very large burst heal.

When doing this, I typically dps until the point I feel the incoming damage is enough to drop their hp below the threshold I feel safe at depending on how the tank is doing.
At which point I drop off cleric, benefic 2 and essential dignity. I typically follow that up by refreshing my regen/shields and see how their hp is doing.

If it seems good enough, It's time to get back to dps.

[Syll]

The fact that they're clearing content makes then a minimally good player. Just good enough to get by. If they tried, they could become a great player. Maybe even an excellent player if they really put effort in.

A bad player is one who fails duties, dragging down the players they're grouped with. There is no grey area with that. You can be 'good' enough to clear basic content. But any kind of 'bad' is enough to fail duties.

I believe you should revise your definition of what makes a player 'good'. I would agree with your version, ONLY if we were discussing solo content. I'm not even talking about Healers DPS'ing/not DPS'ing but clearing content is in NO way an indicator of skill. Horrible, horrible players clear content every day because they are burdens that are carried by better players.

As an example of this, at any given time I can go into party finder and find FCs advertising to get you any clear on any content for a price... By your definition that player who paid for the clear and died in the corner at the start of the fight would still be classified as 'good' because the content was cleared.

[Sylve]

As an example of this, at any given time I can go into party finder and find FCs advertising to get you any clear on any content for a price... By your definition that player who paid for the clear and died in the corner at the start of the fight would still be classified as 'good' because the content was cleared.

Actually, by my own definition, that player who died in a corner failed a mechanic and got carried. Thus i describe him as being bad. My previous posts (That no one ever seems to actually read) allude to that. Failing mechanics makes you bad. Even if you did it intentionally to secure an easy victory on the backs of overgeared mercs.
If you failed, but are willing to learn to beat the mechanic, you are not bad, you are learning.

I have to disagree with your assertion, because the post you made JUST before this one:



you JUST wrote this. The problem is, as I was trying to articulate, your PARTY produced enough damage to complete the duty. A DPS producing 1/3rd the DPS of the other DPS in the party, less than the Tank or the Healer is not 'minimally good' they are disgracefully bad.

In one example, the player is failing the mechanic and not participating while expecting others to clear it for them. That makes them bad.

In the other example, Those players are actively participating (unskilled or undergeared, combination of both, it doesn't actually matter), it's just taking them a long time to clear, as their combined output is only just sufficient to clear the duty before time out.
This makes them minimally good, as in, the absolute minimum of skill/gear required to achieve a clear in which they actively participated.

I'm sorry if the distinction wasn't clear enough.



Wonderful, I've hit post limit. Lol.

[Hayward]

A damage dealer or tank who fulfills their primary role with minimal efficiency to clear the content is not a good player. A healer is not exempt from that, and to say otherwise is completely ignorant of how the game has been designed.

So a healer who isn't interested in XIVLogs parses but gets the job done isn't a good player?

Have a seat, please. Have ALL the seats at your local stadium, in fact.

[Watachy]

So a healer who isn't interested in XIVLogs parses but gets the job done isn't a good player?

Have a seat, please. Have ALL the seats at your local stadium, in fact.

A healer having the job done is a healer dpsing