Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

[Vhailor]

Frankly, the Mentor system needs more of an overhaul to help improve its quality. Currently, it assesses only a player's 'experience' (in a very crude fashion), with barely any regard paid to the quality of the player and their general demeanor. That's a problem, because for a Mentor, experience alone isn't sufficient.

I'd propose a larger revamp, one which absorbs the following two ideas:

(1) Mentors should come in tiers. Bronze, Silver, and Gold. There are plenty of players who would make fantastic mentors who don't grind some of the harder content (or, in the OP's case, Healer to 60). There should be Mentor tiers that account for that (with perhaps the Mentor icon being automatically turned off in instances to which it doesn't apply; for example, a Bronze-level mentor might not have their icon showing if they're in an Alexander Savage run).

(2) Mentors should be reviewed. Players in a party with a Mentor (or possibly only 'new players' having the designated status) should be able to quickly flag a Mentor with a negative or positive review at the end of a Duty Finder event. Too many negative reviews should revoke the status (temporarily), with a permanent revocation being allowed for repeated negative reviews. Mentor status cannot be something that, once obtained, no longer factors in to the mindset of the player.

In return for these changes, feel free to reward Mentors with other perks beyond a proprietary Roulette as needed. But they need to be evaluated, and they need to allow for players with significant (but not exhaustive) expertise to get a foot in the door somehow.

[Louvain]

Giving special "mentor" commends is certainly an appealing idea, but unfortunately, given the attitude many players express, it could be used against mentors. Given the spitefulness of many players in this game, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave a "negative" commendation simply for that person being a mentor, or for "being told how to play" when a mentor tries to give them tips (as was often my experience).

that is, assuming they can be bothered to commend at all and don't just leave the dungeon ASAP. You can't force people to give commends, no matter what type it is.

I do like the idea of turning the mentor status off when you're not in mentor roulette. Wearing the crown when you're leveling an unfamiliar class is just silly and gives false impression.s

[Vhailor]

Giving special "mentor" commends is certainly an appealing idea, but unfortunately, given the attitude many players express, it could be used against mentors. Given the spitefulness of many players in this game, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave a "negative" commendation simply for that person being a mentor, or for "being told how to play" when a mentor tries to give them tips (as was often my experience).

that is, assuming they can be bothered to commend at all and don't just leave the dungeon ASAP. You can't force people to give commends, no matter what type it is.

I do like the idea of turning the mentor status off when you're not in mentor roulette. Wearing the crown when you're leveling an unfamiliar class is just silly and gives false impression.s

In my experience, I have never, ever had someone react negatively to politely phrased tips. I've seen plenty of people THINK they're being polite when they're really being assholes, but not when advice is properly given. Either way, the notion that a few people might abuse the system shouldn't hold SE back from implementing it. People abuse the Party Invite system and /tell system (RMT), the Party Finder system (for buying runs), the visible MB prices (for undercutting), and so on and so forth - should we do away with all of them out of an overabundance of caution?

Also, there's loads of first-hand evidence available (virtually anyone who has played very long has at least one story) that suggests Mentors are often incompetent or mean-spirited. It's a far bigger problem than the risk of a few people trolling the system.

[JunseiKei]

~snip~

You've been incredibly lucky. I've seen this stuff long before the mentor system was even talked about. Older image used, but I've seen this kind of exchange many times (tank left before the "just helping" line came out). I wouldn't say we were acting negatively at all.



The pendulum swings both ways. There are bad mentors as well as people that can't take advice.

The term "abuse" entails misuse of something. While many people find it annoying, using the MB for undercutting is not abuse, nor are selling runs on PF anymore than using it to look for new members to raid. RMTs are another story altogether. We might have certain things annoying (like undercutting), but that does not mean it is abuse. Legit abuse are things like trading someone to stop a teleport, which is then report-able. It's really no coincidence that actual abused things are report-able.

If the leave negative feedback option was implemented and was automated, the system would be abused. People will report out of spite; people don't like being corrected. Especially when things are subjective; with text, it's hard to tell if it's someone's typing style or if they are honestly being rude. Being blunt doesn't deserve a negative feedback. I've told plenty of white mages (and other healers, but WHM players takes first place) complaining about tanks not letting them regen MP between pulls or bards not singing Mage's Ballad 24/7. I've told them about their best friend, Shroud of Saints, and what the refresh status does and that every pull does not need Medica II up, especially if no one but the tank is taking damage. I've been met with majority of "omg stfu and don't tell me how to play."

Last time I had this happen was a little before Dun Scaith came out while running Mhach. WHM was complaining the bard wasn't playing Mage's Ballad the whole time and I told them playing that cuts into their DPS and explained they have Assize and Shroud for MP (which I had noted they had not used Shroud once up until that point). Oddly enough, it was their scholar co-healer that, apparently, got triggered and started to berate me. That WHM and I actually started talking and I exchanged tips with them. They were thankful (one of the few times! :>) while their scholar told me to shut up and uninstall and tried to vote kick me multiple times (thank god for mostly premade with friends. It was only the healers that weren't in the premade and since I did end up getting a commendation, I don't think it was the WHM trying to kick me).

If the system wasn't automated, it'd mean it'd have to be directed to SE workers (like GMs/ customer service representatives) and to be fair, they have more important things to handle.

[Vhailor]

You've been incredibly lucky. I've seen this stuff long before the mentor system was even talked about. Older image used, but I've seen this kind of exchange many times (tank left before the "just helping" line came out). I wouldn't say we were acting negatively at all.

Negatively? No. Unwanted? Absolutely. Unnecessary? Arguably. I'm not at all surprised the player got miffed, though leaving seemed like a bit of a strong reaction.

Look, unless people are WANTING advice, it's not the role of a Mentor to provide it. If someone appears to be struggling, or if you're having trouble, you speak up: "The pulls are a bit big for me" or "I'm having to heal the DPS a lot, try to focus on hate a bit more." If they're new, you can ASK them if they want help, otherwise I'd hold off even doing that.

[JunseiKei]

~snip~

It's also unwanted when everyone but the tank ends up tanking (as what kept happening, hence why we even spoke up in the first place).

What, then, when you ask and they say "no" despite the issues? If you can't even perform your role at a baseline function, yet want no advice, then you're immediately back to square one. You're "forced" to suffer through a run with incompetent players, leave and suffer a penalty, kick them yourself, ask to be removed, or give that [unwanted] advice. Considering you're a mentor, especially if you're wearing the crown, most other players would probably expect you to say something (which I have also seen others ask players why mentors aren't mentoring).

It's a catch-22.

[Louvain]

-snip-

...but that IS the role of the mentor. If I see a player struggling, either with class or mechanics, I'm going to say something about it to let them know. There's no reason to let a someone struggle for the sake of pride. It is unfair to let hold the rest of the party back on that person's skill level either.

Anyways. Back on topic....I do agree that mentor requirements need to be changed to be more strict, but options to do so without facing the risk of abuse are very, very limited.

[NolLacnala]

etc

Your negative experiences are obviously the only negative experiences anyone has ever experienced, because everyone is obviously just an extension of you and your mindset.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotally experienced.

[AlphaFox]

I think the phrase "unwanted advice" comes into play. I honestly don't know how or know the best way to give tips but it seems like asking first is the best route. "Mind if I give you some tips?" Really dunno though just depends on the situation though I guess. I know when it comes to tanks and hate that is more of a critical issue than an "ice" mage I guess but meh.

[Altena]

So many people are hung up on the idea that most of us are saying mentors are supposed to give "advanced" ins and outs of specific jobs etc.

Most of us (myself included, if you read through the OP properly) aren't even talking about an "advanced" level of knowledge.

My example in this case (in the OP) was a tank who just didn't have a clue on absolute basic game mechanics such as dodging a ground AoE or pulling melee mobs next to ranged mobs so it's easier to keep it off the healers.
This stuff is basic level PvE content, it's not about advanced rotations or how to clear A12S.. Lol...

I also disagree that mentors should be required to clear A12S. I mean what happens when next raid tier comes out? Suddenly we don't have a single mentor for the first week or 2, then after that we have maybe 1 or 2 parties per server at most (on the more progressive servers) who manage to clear the last fight? That just flat out wouldn't work. Some servers wouldn't have mentors for weeks after a new raid patch..

I do like the idea of a tiered system. A basic mentor that can tell you where to get your chocobo, where to go for your next class quest, etc.. And another who can give you PvE advice in dungeons or basic stuff about your jobs. However I do feel like the requirement for both PvE and PvP should be higher.

In regards to all of the people saying - playtime doesn't equate to player skill, I do agree to some extent however I disagree on a different level.
Someone with high playtime has a higher likelihood of being more knowledgeable about the game. I am not saying this is always the case, as there are always exceptions in every rule. I mean on the flip side of that, someone who has played the game for a month may know just as much as someone who has played for 2 years.. It however is "generally" not as likely, and a newer player with less logged hours is more than likely not going to be as knowledgeable. I mean I am sorry to say, but practice does make perfect. Someone who does spend a lot of time on the game, (afk or not) more often then not has enough interest in the game to go over and above a basic level of knowledge.

So no, playtime does not ALWAYS equate to higher level of knowledge, however on a general level - someone who plays the game more frequently than someone else has a higher chance of being more knowledgeable.