WAR damage is lacking

[CommanderNarwhal]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

[shao32]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

for have a warrior on lvl 60 looks like you dont know nothing about the job, WAR have a skill name MAIM, this skill is part of you regular combos and increse all damage dealt by 20%, in defiance and maim up warrior only suffer a penalitation of -5% in the end, not a -25%, plus all skill that use wrath are not affect by the damage penalitation, paladin have a permanent -15% of damage penalitation without chance to reduce it in any way, so you argument is invalid.

read all you skills description and stop trolling, WAR is the best dps tank and have the best mitigation kit, no paladin or dark knight can match that for now.

[Launched]

for have a warrior on lvl 60 looks like you dont know nothing about the job, WAR have a skill name MAIM, this skill is part of you regular combos and increse all damage dealt by 20%, in defiance and maim up warrior only suffer a penalitation of -5% in the end, not a -25%, plus all skill that use wrath are not affect by the damage penalitation, paladin have a permanent -15% of damage penalitation without chance to reduce it in any way, so you argument is invalid.

I'm not going to get involved in the original topic, but you're wrong about this. WAR and PLD both lose about the same percentage of DPS when you compare full DPS stance vs full tank stance, which means WAR loses more actual DPS since their numbers are actually higher (in my tests on SSS, PLD loses ~400 DPS and WAR loses ~500 DPS). Your point about Maim is irrelevant because it's also used in Deliverance and should have 100% uptime, so the damage gained from it is also reduced by Defiance. When WAR is in tank stance they have a 25% damage penalty, they lose the 5% damage buff from Deliverance, they lose 10% crit on every Fell Cleave/Decimate (and the effect of crit stacks on every other skill), and they lose 200 potency every time they use Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave. Unchained makes up for a lot of that, but it doesn't stop WAR from having a higher DPS loss.

[shao32]

snip

i was arguing compared about the base job whitout stances going to tank stance, i know most actual WAR damage is based on fell cleave and bersek i do my test to, my point was WAR damage penalty is high but its just a shadow, bcs WAR dont need defiance for almost nothing, and the moment they need it they can switch back quick to deliverance, 10 seconds what are? 1 inner beast? plus they can ignore great part with unchained, just saying the op is making a drama bcs WAR dps is almost the same in defiance as a paladin i shield more when defiance is just a temporal status for pulls and the 0,1% of the conten you need to use inner beast, WAR have a lot of tools to keep they dps, he can get back the day WAR is force to stay in defiance 90% of the time.

sure i dont explain my self well in that post so sorry for that

[Kitfox]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

Are you aware that the Sword Oath auto-attacks amount to over 10% of PLD damage?

[aleph_null]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

Lol you know that a12s is pretty much all magic dmg, and a9s-a11s tank busters are trivial enough that a gritless drk or deliverance war can tank well while doing quite a lot more dps right?

for have a warrior on lvl 60 looks like you dont know nothing about the job, WAR have a skill name MAIM, this skill is part of you regular combos and increse all damage dealt by 20%, in defiance and maim up warrior only suffer a penalitation of -5% in the end, not a -25%, plus all skill that use wrath are not affect by the damage penalitation, paladin have a permanent -15% of damage penalitation without chance to reduce it in any way, so you argument is invalid.

That's a flawed argument though. It's not like you don't keep maim and eye up when you're in deliverance, so it's still 1.05*1.2*1.1 (if you count eye) vs 0.75*1.2*1.1, effectively around 28.6% reduction by entering defiance (0.75/1.05 = 0.714-ish). This is further widened by the lack of access to fell cleave and crit boost from abandon stacks. There's a reason why warriors hate defiance without unchained, just like how pld and drk (should) hate shield/grit.

Mitigation wise, war is the best when they're in defiance, thanks to IB every 20-ish sec, though as explained above, pretty much nobody tanks in defiance all the time. That said, the short recast of holmgang and the long gaps between tank busters in current raid tier make us really strong. In a11s there are up to 5 tank busters over 90s apart from each other, meaning that you can cheese up to 3 of them (and the 2nd one during pyretic phase is usually cheesed by the pld/drk). The anti knockback also works really well if you a the tank buster in the last phase. In a12s there are up to 2 punishing heats in first phase and 5 after divine judgment, I pull the boss in my group, using holmgang on the first, thrill+venge on the second, holmgang on the first and fifth ones after divine judgment, while my group's drk only takes 3 punishing heats, allowing them to stack 2 cds for each (skin+mind, wall+mind, skin+mind) without needing grit at all.

[Dzian]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

That's because DPS is king and mitigation is a joke..

it's why paladins have had so many buffs in recent patches. there mitigation just wasnt needed. all that matters is dps, and thus no one took paladins to raids.
thus did they buff its dps several times to make it more desirable because its mitigation wasn't worth a dime.

paladin is defensive tank in a game that revoloves almost entirely around offence. defence is laughable.

it's kinda the same thing you see with whms there uber heals just aint necessary all that matters is dps so whms are getting pushed out in favour of ast/sch

and again with monk. there dps is high but they do nothing to a parties dps.... so take a dragoon instead..

[Ultimatecalibur]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

Couple corrections. Sword Oath deals 75 potency over 3 seconds with each extra auto-attack scaled based on weapon auto attack speed. This tends to be around 15% of a Paladin's total dps while in Sword Oath.

You are also not factoring Unchained into Warrior dps in Defiance. Properly factoring it in makes Defiance's penalty closer to 20%.

These factors make the losses from going from DpS stance to Tank stance:

• Dark Knight - -20% of the middle dps (100% DRK) for ~80% DRK dps
• Paladin - -26% of the lowest dps (90% DRK) for ~66.6% DRK dps
• Warrior - -24% of the highest dps (~110% DRK) for ~84% DRK dps

[Reynhart]

You are also not factoring Unchained into Warrior dps in Defiance. Properly factoring it in makes Defiance's penalty closer to 20%.

Also not factoring the fact that WAR can easily switch to Deliverance, pop a Fell Cleave (Or even a double), then switch back on Defiance 5 seconds later. Or that even if you have to use Inner Beast or Steel Cyclone, they also igore Defiance's penalty