WAR damage is lacking

[Kitfox]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

Are you aware that the Sword Oath auto-attacks amount to over 10% of PLD damage?

[aleph_null]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

Lol you know that a12s is pretty much all magic dmg, and a9s-a11s tank busters are trivial enough that a gritless drk or deliverance war can tank well while doing quite a lot more dps right?

for have a warrior on lvl 60 looks like you dont know nothing about the job, WAR have a skill name MAIM, this skill is part of you regular combos and increse all damage dealt by 20%, in defiance and maim up warrior only suffer a penalitation of -5% in the end, not a -25%, plus all skill that use wrath are not affect by the damage penalitation, paladin have a permanent -15% of damage penalitation without chance to reduce it in any way, so you argument is invalid.

That's a flawed argument though. It's not like you don't keep maim and eye up when you're in deliverance, so it's still 1.05*1.2*1.1 (if you count eye) vs 0.75*1.2*1.1, effectively around 28.6% reduction by entering defiance (0.75/1.05 = 0.714-ish). This is further widened by the lack of access to fell cleave and crit boost from abandon stacks. There's a reason why warriors hate defiance without unchained, just like how pld and drk (should) hate shield/grit.

Mitigation wise, war is the best when they're in defiance, thanks to IB every 20-ish sec, though as explained above, pretty much nobody tanks in defiance all the time. That said, the short recast of holmgang and the long gaps between tank busters in current raid tier make us really strong. In a11s there are up to 5 tank busters over 90s apart from each other, meaning that you can cheese up to 3 of them (and the 2nd one during pyretic phase is usually cheesed by the pld/drk). The anti knockback also works really well if you a the tank buster in the last phase. In a12s there are up to 2 punishing heats in first phase and 5 after divine judgment, I pull the boss in my group, using holmgang on the first, thrill+venge on the second, holmgang on the first and fifth ones after divine judgment, while my group's drk only takes 3 punishing heats, allowing them to stack 2 cds for each (skin+mind, wall+mind, skin+mind) without needing grit at all.

[Dzian]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

That's because DPS is king and mitigation is a joke..

it's why paladins have had so many buffs in recent patches. there mitigation just wasnt needed. all that matters is dps, and thus no one took paladins to raids.
thus did they buff its dps several times to make it more desirable because its mitigation wasn't worth a dime.

paladin is defensive tank in a game that revoloves almost entirely around offence. defence is laughable.

it's kinda the same thing you see with whms there uber heals just aint necessary all that matters is dps so whms are getting pushed out in favour of ast/sch

and again with monk. there dps is high but they do nothing to a parties dps.... so take a dragoon instead..

[Ultimatecalibur]

Paladin loses 15% and a 75 potency attack after every auto-attack while warrior loses 25% and fell cleave plus the 5% from deliverance. Paladin damage is weirdly high for the amount of mitigation they have.

Couple corrections. Sword Oath deals 75 potency over 3 seconds with each extra auto-attack scaled based on weapon auto attack speed. This tends to be around 15% of a Paladin's total dps while in Sword Oath.

You are also not factoring Unchained into Warrior dps in Defiance. Properly factoring it in makes Defiance's penalty closer to 20%.

These factors make the losses from going from DpS stance to Tank stance:

• Dark Knight - -20% of the middle dps (100% DRK) for ~80% DRK dps
• Paladin - -26% of the lowest dps (90% DRK) for ~66.6% DRK dps
• Warrior - -24% of the highest dps (~110% DRK) for ~84% DRK dps

[SpookyGhost]

1.) WAR doesn't just gain 5% damage increase while in Deliverance, it also gains access to Fell Cleave and Decimate. On top of that, you forgot the 2% Crit+ for every Abandon stack, which works up to a 10% Crit+ at 5 stacks.

2.) The reason Boris used averages as opposed to the top parses is because we currently live in the time of speed runs, any parse at the top is either extremely catered for a parse run or the time is so low that the DPS difference gets skewed depending on when the encounter ends. On top of this, any top parse will have the WAR pulling for at least 1 GCD in Defiance, which immediately puts WAR back. Regardless, don't base DPS difference on the top parses of FFLogs especially during speedrunning season.

3.) Even if every tank had equal DPS, we would still be invaluable due to SE (DPS loss not to bring us b/c now NIN needs to apply DE) and SP (insanely potent mitigation during progression). We also have the best AOE and the highest gDPS optimal opener.

4.) jsyk Maim alone gives you higher base damage than DRK or PLD, so the differences between FC/Decimate and Goring/Scourge aren't actually that far apart. On top of this you get the crit bonus from Deliverance and the insanely important advantage of being to double/triple FC inside of Berserk.

Basically. You're just not right. Even if you were right, we are close enough to the expansion where it doesn't matter.

[BorisDaBlade]

top FFlogs show warrior doing 2,385 and dark knight doing 2484 on 9 savage, the argument isn't invalid, its proven

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://...IRjgMea5HSd8Nw

Here are the number I found.....they don't seem to match yours.

[BorisDaBlade]

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://...IRjgMea5HSd8Nw

Here are the number I found.....they don't seem to match yours.

Um did realize how out of date those were lol disregard. Lol.

[aleph_null]

The link in my post showed the top entries of tanks in a9s, 2.4k is nowhere near the top for warriors (3.3k) though that's certainly a padded run catered for the war.

I honestly don't think people should be too fixated at this MT/OT thing mentioned in OP's first post, or warriors being valuable due to their huge OT dps (which kinda made a lot of warriors refuse to pull bosses or do things that'd help the pld/drk's dps at the expense of theirs). Group strategies should prioritize whole group's dps. If the "OT" war can lose 200 dps to let the "MT" drk/pld gain 300 dps, then why not? Also like in the top a9s groups, the wars don't spam overpower or berserk'd double decimate on the adds, since that's not the optimal way to reduce kill time, they use fell cleave on the boss instead, leaving adds to off gcd skills (dark passenger, geirskogul, deathflare etc) which do not reduce the group's single target dps on the boss. Spamming overpower and decimate in a9s is a good way to pad your personal dps at the expense of the group's kill speed.

Another thing to add, war will not go out of meta, at least with the current jobs we have now. As long as they don't give slashing debuff to pld/drk, war will always have a place in an even slightly optimized group. Not bringing war means ~8-10% dps loss on both tanks, or if you bring nin for slashing debuff, it'll come at the expense of the nin's dps. Not to mention the other great things a war can offer to a group: huge aggro lead with/without unchained at pull, storm's path for early/low ilv progression, holmgang with 3m cd (you can use holmgang 3x in a12s to completely cheese 3x punishing heat + divine spear combo, which allows your drk to stack multiple cds for every other punishing heat, without having to turn grit on even once).

[LordNickage]

I'm kind of a mid tier WAR. How the hell are people pulling those kinds of numbers? I can maintain a rotation and do a triple FC Berserk opener on WAR but my burst is around 1800 and steadily falls through the fight.
Granted I use Eye/Path since we don't have a ninja so that I lose a little dps for added utility.
Still... 3.3k? That's unfathomable to me.

Back on subject, I feel WAR damage and utility are in a good spot. I'd like to see adjustments to PLD and DRK, if anything.

[Sarcatica]

I'm kind of a mid tier WAR. How the hell are people pulling those kinds of numbers? I can maintain a rotation and do a triple FC Berserk opener on WAR but my burst is around 1800 and steadily falls through the fight.
Granted I use Eye/Path since we don't have a ninja so that I lose a little dps for added utility.
Still... 3.3k? That's unfathomable to me.

Back on subject, I feel WAR damage and utility are in a good spot. I'd like to see adjustments to PLD and DRK, if anything.

Pushing unfavourable phases and killing the fights faster contribute a huge portion with MCH and NIN. Padding runs exist too so you pretty much leave adds for WAR, not to mention extended Balance is a thing if you just want to padd your number.

Phases like Double Scraplines in a9s for example requiring you to be mini-ed. For a10s, only thing I can think of is having tanks handle the preys and probably the adds. Lapis Lazuli skip is a huge one in a11s, minor ones are like the EDD adds where you have to tank and when boss does limit cut and go invul. Lastly for a12s, the last phase dance is a good chunk, basically you don't want to even see the "Summon Alexander" cast.