Thread: *SPOILER* So I think the new primal in 3.5 part 2 is...

Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

As I said, it won't be Rhalgr himself, but it will represent Rhalgr.

Unless, of course, the Twelve aren't based on prior, actually-existing beings, and instead are thought-forms of culturally-significant values and beliefs; if Rhalgr didn't/doesn't actually exist, any Primal manifestation will be Rhalgr himself, as there's no "original" for it to represent.

While worship of the Twelve goes back farther than any historical records still exist, I would be surprised if there wasn't SOME kind of entity behind the worship. Whether it was a group of adventurers whose legend deified them over time, or actual gods who once existed and may still, their importance in the world building indicates to me that they weren't completely made up.

Naturally, a Primal wouldn't necessarily closely resemble whatever entity is behind the legend. Shiva, Bahamut, and now Garuda, as well, have shown that there's a lot of wiggle room in that regard - a Primal may bear very little physical or mental resemblance to the entity it represents.

I guess I'm just taking some issue with the idea that a Primal of Rhalgr would somehow not be the "real" Rhalgr. This is different from Bahamut, Shiva, and Moggle Mog, who were historical entities being invoked directly; if Rhalgr was summoned, it wouldn't be as whatever inspired him, but instead as the Rhalgr-of-the-Twelve worshiped in the modern day. Because that's a concept and not a physical, historical entity, it doesn't matter how closely Rhalgr resembles some hypothetical hero of millenia past - he'd be the real deal in the same way that Titan, Ifrit, and - yes - Garuda are the "real" Titan, Ifrit, and Garuda.

Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

I guess I'm just taking some issue with the idea that a Primal of Rhalgr would somehow not be the "real" Rhalgr. This is different from Bahamut, Shiva, and Moggle Mog, who were historical entities being invoked directly; if Rhalgr was summoned, it wouldn't be as whatever inspired him, but instead as the Rhalgr-of-the-Twelve worshiped in the modern day. Because that's a concept and not a physical, historical entity, it doesn't matter how closely Rhalgr resembles some hypothetical hero of millenia past - he'd be the real deal in the same way that Titan, Ifrit, and - yes - Garuda are the "real" Titan, Ifrit, and Garuda.

Well in a sense. Garuda was an Allagan commander that was in charge of the Ixali. Their image of her the result of her story progressing into Myth. In that regard she is actually quite a lot like Moogle Mog since the Moogle's of the Twelveswood weren't factual in their understanding of the true story. Regardless, all primals, regardless of their origin, are shaped by the belief of their followers. Even Shiva was Iceheart's imagination of the real Shiva, if in a rather more powerful form.

Belhi's right... Of course Rhalgr is worshiped by many people, but do you really believe that everyone everywhere has the exact same idea od Rhalgr ? The conceptual idea of a god is just too complex, given how many people describe it with different, to concretely exist. Titan is never exactly the same when he's summoned : Sometimes he wants to protect the kobolds, sometimes he's grieving for his parents, and sometimes, he wants to destroy everything. Bestial primals are extremely simple because at each summoning, they only exist for one purpose.

It will be the same for Rhalgr. This primal won't be Rhalgr, it will be the idea of Rhalgr Ilberd has.

Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

This primal won't be Rhalgr, it will be the idea of Rhalgr Ilberd has.

My question then would be, "What is Rhalgr, to make Ilberd's concept of him not be Rhalgr?"

Originally Posted by Belhi

Well in a sense. Garuda was an Allagan commander that was in charge of the Ixali. Their image of her the result of her story progressing into Myth. In that regard she is actually quite a lot like Moogle Mog since the Moogle's of the Twelveswood weren't factual in their understanding of the true story. Regardless, all primals, regardless of their origin, are shaped by the belief of their followers. Even Shiva was Iceheart's imagination of the real Shiva, if in a rather more powerful form.

Yeah, sure, but Shiva and Moggle Mog (and Bahamut) aren't really the same as Garuda, surely? The former were all summoned by people off the (admittedly idealized) idea of people they knew to exist; Garuda isn't being summoned as her Allagan incarnation, but instead as a deity that happened to have its origins in a living person from the ancient past. That's not what's being invoked by the Ixali, so it's different from the others.

My point is, when the Primal being summoned is based off a historical figure, it can be said to be Not Really Them, but a deity is a different matter. If Ilberd summons Rhalgr, it can't be said to not really be Rhalgr, because it is - for all intents and purposes - the only Rhalgr to actually exist. When there's no concrete form (and there isn't - just the myriad of different beliefs people have of him), there's no way for him to not be Rhalgr. The representation IS the "real Rhalgr."

Maybe we're just arguing semantics here - all Rhalgrs are Real Rhalgrs, no Rhalgr could be the Real Rhalgr, it's all the same - but I don't see why the distinction is being brought up. The other Beast Tribe Primals could conceivably be summoned to be different from the versions we've seen, but nobody ever argues that Ifrit isn't the Real Ifrit.

Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

if Rhalgr didn't/doesn't actually exist, any Primal manifestation will be Rhalgr himself, as there's no "original" for it to represent.

If no true Rhalgr actually exists, no manifestation will be Rhalgr as there is no Rhalgr to BE. The summoned entity is itself, but is not a "true" Rhalgr (since the premise is none exists).

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Something is drawn towards the faith (spiritual aether, another of the basic elements); the faith acts as a beacon.

That's exactly what I'm not so sure of... We have no proof at all that anything is drawn from the lifestream... The only thing we have is the fact that something that resembles a god revered by a people is summoned. Something that has roughly the same emotional characteristics as the character that inspired them, or what the people want their god to be. Garuda is saddistic and arrogant because that's how Garuda the general was to the Ixali. So they probably spent generations romancizing this character, slowly becoming a godess that gave birth to them all, because... that's what the allagan did.

Garuda the general has for long been in the lifestream, so I'm not so sure her soul could come back so easily from the dead... Rather, it's the high concentration of aether and the beliefs that this character is supposed to have these feelings, these desires, that give them a really simple "soul" that's barely enough for them to do what they've been summoned for. So basically... the same thing that draws "life" in the anima weapons and such, in a more "carnal" way.