16 hours of cross server zurvan extreme party finder: my thoughts

[Deathgiver]

I think this primal is going to be one of the more frustrating to farm. We've got 2 groups of people with clears at this point, the ones who couldn't or didn't learn mechanics because they simply relied on extra dps from dropping a tank and/or healer for a dps, and the ones who know the fight inside and out because they learned it with a standard comp party with average dps. For the former group, rf isn't even an option, they'll just cause wipes when they see mechanics they skipped past before.

[Brill_]

snip...

You don't get better by doing easy content repeatedly. You get better by doing stuff the challenges your abilities. Just like you don't get better at calculus by working basic algebra problems. If watching videos works for you, great. It doesn't work for everyone. But the community doesn't understand that. They expect people to watch videos, then step into a fight and execute perfectly. It doesn't work that way. I learn by doing. I get better through failing. Failures point out where I am lacking. Back in 2.0 I didn't realize how bad monk rotation was until I stepped into coil. I saw my problems and got better from there. A video isn't going to tell me that. Experience and failures will.

[SpookyGhost]

It's because of potd

Just popping in to say it's not, most people who play XIV are garbage at it mainly due to the game not teaching anyone anything and then dropping a semblance of challenge at end game (which is all still on a completely predictable pattern). That's not to say that PotD isn't making that even worse, but it's definitely not a new problem.

[Brian_]

snip.

Try going into any fight. Don't press any skills. Focus solely on moving and positioning for mechanics. If you're still constantly failing mechanics, this game is not for you.

You know what? If you go into a fight not knowing your rotation or how to play your job, you will fail 10 out of 10 times. If you can't play your job, no degree of mechanic execution will save you.

Again, you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game. Outside of some phases where the boss is invulnerable, mechanics don't exist in a vacuum. They exist in a fight where you also need to heal, tank, and DPS. You don't need to be in a progression group for the latest EX primal to practice those things. Before you go into a fight to try and learn the mechanics, you should know how to play your job well enough that you can free up your attention to focus on the mechanics. As a DPS / tank, if you are bumbling around with your rotation and spending your attention looking at timers and hotkeys, even easy mechanics will be harder. As a tank, if you are dying to tank busters because you don't know how to formulate a CD rotation, nobody will have the chance to practice mechanics. As a healer, if everyone is dying because you don't know how to heal, how are you supposed to practice mechanics?

The point is when you have amazing numbers on a training dummy and are proficient in your rotation, you will have an easier time focusing on and learning mechanics. And, while your DPS will drop, it'll probably still be enough to clear. If your DPS is straight garbage on a dummy, it's not magically going to get better just because you know a fight's mechanics. It's always going to be straight garbage. And you inability to just focus on the mechanics will hamper your ability to learn them.

You don't get better by doing easy content repeatedly. You get better by doing stuff the challenges your abilities. Just like you don't get better at calculus by working basic algebra problems. If watching videos works for you, great. It doesn't work for everyone. But the community doesn't understand that. They expect people to watch videos, then step into a fight and execute perfectly. It doesn't work that way. I learn by doing. I get better through failing. Failures point out where I am lacking. Back in 2.0 I didn't realize how bad monk rotation was until I stepped into coil. I saw my problems and got better from there. A video isn't going to tell me that. Experience and failures will.

You're right that you get better by doing stuff that challenges your abilities. You're wrong in the assumption that only includes up-to-date harder raid content. It's that mentality that is severely hampering people in their progression and making PF a nightmare. You can and should be challenging yourself to improve. Not relying on content to challenge you first. Even in your example, the lack of coil didn't make you blind to how bad your rotation was, your lack of self-awareness and complacency did.

Parsing close to the 100% percentile in easier content is not easy. For a lot of top raiders, Savage and EX trials are easy content. But, how do they continue to make it challenging? By extreme degrees of optimization and performance -- pushing for parse runs, speed-kills, <8 man kills, solo-tank / heal kills, etc.

They aren't waiting until the next raid tier to discover if they're playing their job well or not. They're making sure beforehand that they're capable of performing at top levels. So, when the challenge does come, they are prepared for it rather than playing the game of catch-up.

That's why you have some groups clearly content extremely quickly. They almost instantaneously and intuitively adapt the role to the fight because it's already second nature to them -- tanks formulate optimized CD rotations quickly, healers find their DPS windows and coordinate raid mitigation quickly, and DPS will optimized their burst windows, CD alignment, and play around up-time. As a result, they focus solely on dealing with and figuring out mechanics.

Like I said earlier, the gap in skill between some random PF player and a top raider is inevitable. But, the gap in mentality isn't. The biggest thing that separates the two is not their ability to hit keys on a keyboard, it's their mentality.

This undeniable fact is born out in the comparison between JP PF and NA PF. Are JP players genetically superior to NA players and naturally more skilled? No. The difference is they come to content as prepared as they can be due to their respect for others and the community. NA players don't. JP players worry if they're holding the group back. NA players worry if the group is holding them back.

[RubyCirha]

Hears a thought instead of complaining why don't you take 5 min of you life and actualy teach if you don't like the way some one is playing give constructive criticism instead of belittling players help them get better stop being so toxic it's unbecoming of a "endgame raider"

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You don't get better by doing easy content repeatedly. You get better by doing stuff the challenges your abilities. Just like you don't get better at calculus by working basic algebra problems. If watching videos works for you, great. It doesn't work for everyone. But the community doesn't understand that. They expect people to watch videos, then step into a fight and execute perfectly. It doesn't work that way. I learn by doing. I get better through failing. Failures point out where I am lacking. Back in 2.0 I didn't realize how bad monk rotation was until I stepped into coil. I saw my problems and got better from there. A video isn't going to tell me that. Experience and failures will.

I learned the Dragoon rotation in advance of even reaching level 60. How? I watched videos, read guides and simply adjusted to each new skill once I reached 50. For ages I never touched Doom Spike and prior to that, I mostly single targeted mobs. I learned by repeatedly doing easier content (aka dungeons) and picking up advice along the way. No one told me Doom Spike is better aoe damage. I found Thendiel Swansong's guides on my volition and practiced. You do not need nor should you be learning your rotation in extreme primal fights. The hard and normal modes exist for a reason. When I eventually switched over to tanking-- myfirst time in an MMO to date. I went back into the baby content and learned all over again. Even now, when I have a solid grip on Dark Knight outside Savage, I still went back to older content after deciding to level Warrior. Yes, they are both tanks, but they play differently. I am concurrently leveling White Mage through the very same process. Speaking of, I have caused the occasional wipe because I'm not used to line of sight casting or I miss pressed a button. Virtually every time, the tanks have either apologized or I did. People are far more forgiving in leveling content where expectations are lower.

Bringing White Mage into Zurvan when I haven't healed before isn't fair towards the other seven people unless I make them aware it's a secondary job I am still getting the hang of. I certainly have no business joining a farm party on it. No offense, if it took you going into Coil to realize your rotation was wrong. The onus is on you to seek out Monk guides and adapt in easier content. Not complain clear parties should accept poor performance because you're learning.

[Yeol]

Hears a thought instead of complaining why don't you take 5 min of you life and actualy teach if you don't like the way some one is playing give constructive criticism instead of belittling players help them get better stop being so toxic it's unbecoming of a "endgame raider"

Teaching the fight is fine. Different groups have different strats.
Teaching someone how to play their job at an extream fight .. that is not the right place to do so.

[Brill_]

I certainly have no business joining a farm party on it. No offense, if it took you going into Coil to realize your rotation was wrong. The onus is on you to seek out Monk guides and adapt in easier content. Not complain clear parties should accept poor performance because you're learning.

I did look at guides. As I stated before, watching a guide will never replace actual experience. I don't know where my skill is lacking until I get in there and do it. If I could become a pro just by watching videos, then I'd go watch sports film and be a pro athlete. I never complained that clear parties should accept poor performance. I also never said you should go straight to extreme content on a job you never played before. We all learn and improve in different ways. I don't join clear parties. I don't join farm parties. In learning parties, the community expects perfection(hence the OP 2 hour remark) and rage quits after the first wipe.

[bswpayton]

Try going into any fight. Don't press any skills. Focus solely on moving and positioning for mechanics. If you're still constantly failing mechanics, this game is not for you.

If I'm still failing mechanics the game isn't for me , are you reading the same post as me because this very thread is about failed mechanics. No where in the opening statement did it say that people where not doing their rotations, nobody was even mentioning rotations and dps at all. The op didnt say know your rotation even in her party finder they said know the mechanics of the fight. Like I said nobody is arguing with you about knowing your job and knowing a rotation , you dont even know if the people in the ops party finder wernt doing their rotations you are just assuming.

Once anybody says the easy word that lets me know right there that they are only going to see things from their own view point. I just had two parties fail grauda extreme yesterday its the least challenging of the primals but people still can wipe and it happens, and Im not going to beat people up about it either. People where having trouble with the mechanics and thats ok it happens this isnt a job, their are no deadlines there are no must do this or do that. Its a game and just like maybe u dont wana be in a party with those whom u say would waste ur time, then someone could take that same mentality and say they think studing someone elses rotation is a waste of time when they feel like they know how to play their job.

Im not sayin I agree with that but it can go both ways, failing isnt a bad thing I have spent 60 mins in a trail and it not work out in the end. But thats ok because its a game the things I may have wanted to do that day will be there tomorrow , Im not gona get pissed at people because it is harder for them to learn something than others. This primal will be the last extreme until probably july this summer if you didnt clear it in the first week then so be it , its gona be there to do for six months let other people learn it before you bash them. Thats why I said some people just need to do parties with their friends and be just a group of elite players amoungst themselves. Because I dont believe for a second that in a 16 hour time frame that every single person that joined ops party didnt know their rotations , lied about the phases she asked them to know to enter the party, or just where crappy players.

I just believe that some people had trouble with the content and thats ok was it not meant to be that way do you think when SE made it they wanted half the player base to clear it in the first day, so if people arent gettin it in the first few days I believe that was the goal they had in mind. Some people are just above that level and thats ok , if the game isnt challenging to them then find something that is , dont ragg on people for having difficulty with something that had every intention to be difficult by the people that made it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I did look at guides. As I stated before, watching a guide will never replace actual experience. I don't know where my skill is lacking until I get in there and do it. If I could become a pro just by watching videos, then I'd go watch sports film and be a pro athlete. I never complained that clear parties should accept poor performance. I also never said you should go straight to extreme content on a job you never played before. We all learn and improve in different ways. I don't join clear parties. I don't join farm parties. In learning parties, the community expects perfection(hence the OP 2 hour remark) and rage quits after the first wipe.

That isn't what I said. Note the portion you quoted what I even specifically mention "adapt in easier content." Furthermore, I outlined my own progression in dungeons and normal mode trials. Extreme isn't the place where you should be learning your rotation regardless of the party requirements. If I'm helping a learning group clear Zurvan, I don't expect to be coaching someone one their job rotation. It's hardly unreasonable people hold you to at least those standards.