Thread: Revelations from Patch 3.5

Originally Posted by Naria

So technically when we defeated Bahamut he wasn't at full power. The primal that Ilberd was summoning was suppose to be more powerful than Bahamut, who caused a Calamity. If it is Rhalgr than that makes sense--a partial summoning of the Twelve was used to try to power the seal to permanently contain Bahamut because a full summoning would have destroyed all life on Hydaelyn. It took another primal with Tupsimati and basically a death-powered summoning to even make a dent in Bahamut at full power. Rhalgr is only one of the Twelve but worship of the Twelve predates the Allagans and it is implied that they are on a completely different level than other deities in Eorzea. With his sacrifice and Tupsimati, Papalymo only bought the Scions time. I want to know what Elidibus is playing at since "kill everything" is not his usual style.

/10character

"Bahamut full power" (The one that destroyed FFXIV 1.0) had thousands of years to charge in a moon-sized container full of dragon batteries.

Ilberd's thing did not. Unless he found some way of gathering huge amounts of aether in a very short amount of time that alluded even the Allagans, it's unlikely that it would have compared to full Bahamut.

Originally Posted by Alberel

I think people are underestimating it.

We don't know how much aether the eyes still possessed. At multiple times throughout the story it's been implied that the eyes are effectively limitless in their power. Ilberd is also the first summoner we've seen to perform a self-sacrifice as part of the ritual. The original extreme primals highlighted that sacrifice directly increases the strength of the summoned creature so there's no telling how much more powerful a deiform summoned by self-sacrifice would be. Ilberd seemed convinced that it would be more powerful than even Bahamut though, and the Dreadwyrm was so powerful that we couldn't face him head on as it was.

The eyes are unlimited in that they absorb surrounding aether over time, but they can still be drained over the span of something short like a fight. If that were not the case, then we could not have defeated Thordan or Nidhogg, whose forms were sustained by aether.

Self sacrifice isn't likely a huge augment. (Especially that of a mere one person. The other dead people were not voluntary.) It helps, but if it really does modify summonings to >Bahamut levels, then you'd have huge threats popping up all the time, what with all the crazy cults & desperate inhabitants everywhere in Eorzea.

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

The 3.5 MSQ baffles me.

Why did Papalymo feel like he needed to do the Louisoix self-sacrifice thing? Why did they just simply assume that the WoL can't defeat whatever primal Ilberd tried to summon? I mean, you can defeat Bahamut, Alexander, Scathach & Super Saiyan Diabolos, Thordan (who had the power of the two eyes too), Nidhogg, The Warring Triad, and a whole host of other potential world-enders.

So technically when we defeated Bahamut he wasn't at full power. The primal that Ilberd was summoning was suppose to be more powerful than Bahamut, who caused a Calamity. If it is Rhalgr than that makes sense--a partial summoning of the Twelve was used to try to power the seal to permanently contain Bahamut because a full summoning would have destroyed all life on Hydaelyn. It took another primal with Tupsimati and basically a death-powered summoning to even make a dent in Bahamut at full power. Rhalgr is only one of the Twelve but worship of the Twelve predates the Allagans and it is implied that they are on a completely different level than other deities in Eorzea. With his sacrifice and Tupsimati, Papalymo only bought the Scions time. I want to know what Elidibus is playing at since "kill everything" is not his usual style.

Addendum

Spoilers for speculation about Omega Weapon

I'd speculate that Tupsimati seems to have some sort of influence over time (which isn't a new idea). Louisoix used it to send the 1.0 WoL forward five years, an act that left them branded with "the mark of the twelve". Papalymo's seal is probably some sort of stasis that keeps the summoning from finishing. Possibly somehow connected to Thailiak? Since there have been hints that Omega has something to do with time then it might be that we aren't going to face Ilbred's primal head on but try to use Omega's power to reverse the summoning before the primal can manifest.

My idea that cumulative faith matters is coming from Thordan--he specifically references "a millennium of prayer" powering him when he is defeated. I'll have to go digging a bit more and see if there is any other reference to this or if that line is English only. That will take a bit of time.

Aether datacenter is still down. I probably won't be able to get back on tonight.

OK, finished the Warring Triad and Scholasticate! Actually I did Scholasticate last night, but...

Warring Triad

Well, with others' information it wasn't too surprising. Van Hydrus proposed an alliance, got himself killed defending Unukalhai, we beat the crap out of Zurvan, and then Unukalhai revealed himself as both Elidibus' servant and a survivor from the void.

I almost declined van Hydrus' offer (not that I could really have done so, but you know). Not because I didn't understand the necessity of it, mind, but because he still insisted on calling us savages. That's... not how you conduct diplomacy. One would hope a legatus would know better, even in an urgent situation!

Zurvan was... a bit of a let down. It's visually impressive to be certain, but other than the fire / ice seals he has no real tricks up his sleeve, and went down after one screw-up on my end. Curious that he was the only member of the Warring Triad without a vocal theme.

That Unukalhai was from the void and Elidibus' servant was... unsurprising. There's no other way he could have known so much about the void, and without Ascian assistance it's questionable how he could have gotten to our world. At least we do know Elidibus is honest when he says he's trying to keep cosmic balance.

Kind of sad to see van Hydrus go. Though we had our differences we could have been comrades, were it not for our clashing ideals.

Scholasticate

Kind of a disappointing end. The culprit was increasingly obvious, and the mastermind practically outed himself. Lebrassoir stood the most to gain and was rather beneath suspicion... which was why I began to suspect him. "Father" Saturnois' uncompromising position in expelling Archombadin also showed he quite clearly had ties to what was going on.

Unfortunately, I feel that the questline being dragged out over 3.1 - 3.5 made it difficult to remember all the characters, and the mastermind's motive felt like a deus ex machina. Nothing really foreshadowed it, though at the least it explains some of the more curious aspects of Ishgardian history (i.e. how only the Archbishop and Heavens' Ward know the truth of the Dragonsong War). Small details, to be sure, but details nonetheless.

It wasn't a bad sidestory, don't get me wrong, but... none of the characters really made an impression on me besides Crammevoix, and with the story stretched out over a year I didn't remember many of the important details, relying on obvious cues as to who the culprit and mastermind were. For mystery stories I'd prefer something more like the Gold Saucer's murder mystery case, where you had to actually search for clues and discern the truth for yourself, instead of having Briarden exposit the truth and giving you a few multiple choices that make no real difference. I understand they can't do that with every such thing, but... the Gold Saucer murder case set the bar kind of high. In my opinion.

At least I got a new emote out of it. Got plenty of glasses already...

On Garlean Ethics and Morality
Forewarning! No complaints!

I've never said the Garleans don't have their good points, or are entirely ignoble or irredeemable. Unlike Eorzeans they are proactive in dealing with the primal issue, taking matters into their own hands instead of simply reacting to threats. They're not afraid of technology, which I think is Eorzea's biggest failing - the Garleans have magitek robots, while Eorzea's most advanced machines not of Garlean design are airships and pea shooters. They have noble individuals who fight and die for their ideals and countrymen.

That said, my issue with Garlemald is not any individuals, but their actions and policies as a sovereign nation. It's political. Individuals like Regula van Hydrus having some decency (even if he insulted us in the next breath) doesn't change that their goal is to bring the entire world to heel, and as someone who values freedom I cannot abide that. As long as their goal remains "peace through tyranny," I don't see us forming any alliances with the Garleans aside from ones of necessity and/or convenience. And for every Regula, we have a Nael / Eula.

That's not to say Garlemald can't get better - but as long as world domination is their (Varis') goal, and the populace remains apathetic to or supportive of that goal along with how horribly conquered peoples are treated and his Machiavellian "the ends justify the means" philosophy, I can't really support Garlemald as a nation. "They were pushed around before magitek" isn't an excuse, since the territories they're now conquering and holding are so far removed from the Garlean homeland it's rather improbable they had anything to do with that - meaning "to survive" or even petty vengeance can't be used to justify it.

I want to see more heroic and good Garleans as much as anyone else. That's just going to take a lot of reformation.

EDIT
Hildibrand

Aww... that was heartwarming! And it's nice to see Cyr actually got character development in instead of becoming Charibert 2.0!

Now if only I could get Julyan to teach me to get that more intense aura and the glowing eyes...

A couple thoughts on the MSQ... or rather in general...

OK, Papalymo has implicitly died, and you're saying "Bury yourself in work to forget your grief?" That's seriously unhealthy! If that's how the Scions cope it's no surprise Thancred lashed out at Emannelain (not that the kid didn't deserve it) and the Warrior of Light's negativity took on a corporeal form of its own! It's no small part of what led to Thancred getting possessed by Lahabrea, setting a lot of 2.0 into motion!

Seriously! Seriously unhealthy!

Originally Posted by Cilia

Seriously! Seriously unhealthy!

MSQ

I've been saying that for ages! I wouldn't have nearly the problem I did with all the various sacrifices in this game if they weren't either a final desperate act born of some vile cocktail of self-loathing, powerlessness, and despair (i.e. G'raha, Ysayle), or immediately shrugged off as necessary (Moenbryda, Minfilia twice, Estinien certainly tried, and now Papalymo). Louie still gets a pass in my book because his sacrifice did have dire unintended consequences, including the domino effect that continues to this day.

Alphinaud is still at his breaking point, apparently, but he hasn't quite broken yet. If there was any one part of your grandfather's legacy to reject, that would be it. You can do it, Alphi!

"I don't want to save the world if none of you are in it." - no FFXIV character ever.