How would you change Specialization?

[MN_14]

In my opinion, specialization should equalize omni-crafters and single class crafters in terms of available skills. A slight boost to craftsmanship and control like it gives atm is fine as well. This will give a specialist a slight edge when it comes to crafting without breaking the balance.

One of the major issues with crafting is that there is no sense of achievement since everything is so easy and there is no benefit to learning the system properly other than crafting speed. In HW, you can HQ anything while essentially ignoring half of the crafting mechanics. This isn't much different than raiding while ignoring all mechanics other than your own class' battle rotation.

So I would completely drop the HQ and NQ system and introduce a system that is more similar to the collectible system. Everyone starts at 0 quality and you can have varying results based on what quality threshold you reach. The average semi-static rotation (with some on the fly modifications) user should have a decent shot at the threshold that gives full primary stats. Beyond that, there could be different thresholds with increasingly better secondary stats/other bonuses and finally an extra meld slot at the highest threshold. To add in a bit of challenge, they would have to greatly increase the quality requirements for the higher thresholds while increasing the inner quiet cap to 13 or 14 as those theoretical IQ stacks are routinely achievable now due to the new HW mechanics. This will allow casual crafters to craft powerful gear while more experienced crafters can benefit from acquired skill.

In addition, the developers could play around with lower threshold requirements for specialists while still making it as challenging to reach the highest ones.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Other than scrapping specialization entirely (which they should), I'd be ok with them forbidding the sale or trade of anything made outside of your specialization that required specialization. Huh? What?

Prior to this patch, let's say I'm not a GSM specialist. But I want to make a scintillant ingot. Let me make it. Let it be bound to my character (not sellable). And anything I make with it... bound to my character. So if I want to make a scintillant staff for my BLM but I'm not a GSM specialist, I can make it for myself. I can't trade it.

However, that's just an idea. Honestly, I keep multiple souls of the crafter handy and I just swap whenever I feel like it.

This would only encourage alts. In your scenario, I simply would have my alt Goldsmith specialist make those Scintillant Rings and sell them on her.

Honestly, you cannot combat omni-crafters because by its very definition: they are hardcore. Whatever obstacle or grind you put in their way, most will push through. This has been the devs' mistake throughout Heavensward. What you do instead is make it easier for people unwilling to level multiple jobs/characters or give them a straight advantage. You would think the RNG aspect would be for non-Specialists yet they have it reversed.

[LineageRazor]

Pretty sure Roth has the best plan in this thread. Cross-class skills are THE biggest impediment to players who would like to focus on a single class or only a few classes. I've had several friends who have dabbled in crafting, but pretty much dropped it like a hot potato once they realized that to be effective at their chosen class they'd need to level all the others as well. If the specialist skills had been equal to - or even superior than - the cross-class skills, SE might have achieved this goal, but as we are all bitterly aware, they are not. Specialty-locked recipes were a Band-Aid fix once they realized that their original plan was wholly ineffective; Omni-crafters ignored the new skills completely and simply found ways to overcome the brutal recipe requirements with existing skills, leaving single-craft players as lost as they ever were.

SE is revamping the cross-class system. It's possible they could still turn the situation around, if they address crafting cross-class skills as well. We'll see.

[Alistaire]

I've said it numerous times.

Specialization Only should be removed as a lock on recipes preventing people from doing them. Specialist Actions should not exist either. Remove both of those, and make the Specialization Stone confer ALL of the other 21 Cross Class Actions, of the level 15, 37, and 50 variety.

Oh hell no. Just because most people haven't figured out the benefits of the specialist actions doesn't mean they're bad. They're great. Also reminds me when I taught a guy having trouble HQ'ing things, taught him how to use them and he later said it was like night and day.

Specialist actions are good, and removing them wouldn't help you at all. If you choose to ignore them, fine, but leave them as is.

(Though I certainly wouldn't complain if they also added all the cross-class secondaries for specialists, but let's be realistic; that'd be so broken.)

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Oh hell no. Just because most people haven't figured out the benefits of the specialist actions doesn't mean they're bad. They're great. Also reminds me when I taught a guy having trouble HQ'ing things, taught him how to use them and he later said it was like night and day.

Specialist actions are good, and removing them wouldn't help you at all. If you choose to ignore them, fine, but leave them as is.

(Though I certainly wouldn't complain if they also added all the cross-class secondaries for specialists, but let's be realistic; that'd be so broken.)

Not gonna go back and dig up a thread from that long ago, but I distinctly remember getting into an argument with someone on these boards about the value of the Specialist Only actions. The long and short of it was, they add an extra layer of RNG and require higher stats to achieve results that might, charitably, be within the same ballpark compared to (yet not as good as) what an omnicrafter can achieve using the cross class moves.

As an above poster said, if they were as good or better than the cross class moves, that would be one thing. They do not come as close as they should, so removing them in favor of getting all of the cross class moves can only help people.

Are the Specialist-only actions bad? On their own, no - though there is a lot more RNG with them, which may be considered bad. Compared to the cross class moves? Higher stats needed and more RNG for lesser results means that, contrary to your opinion, they ARE bad, compared to the cross class moves.

[MN_14]

Specialist abilities are largely useful only if you’re lacking somewhere:

1) Are missing a lot of the useful level 50+ cross class skills
2) Have low base cp

The reason for this is probably because they decided to introduce a system that could be combined with cross class skills so they also had to put in a limiter (much heavier rng) to not completely bust the balance. Anyone who has experience with ARR level 50 end game crafting knows that the effectiveness of a crafter is determined by their HQ yield (% of crafts that HQ overall). AFAIK, it wasn’t possible to guarantee 100% on a 4* craft even with 50% starting quality, never mind the ones that forced you to start from 10-30%.

The specialist abilities achieve the following:
1) Greatly boost your HQ yield if you have no level 50 cross class
2) Greatly boost your HQ yield if you have the cross-class abilities but also have really low starting cp
3) Do little to improve your HQ yield if you have enough cp and cross class abilities to reliably craft without specialist abilities. In fact, they probably lower your potential HQ yield.

Seems like check list design to me….

From my experience (assuming that you care to farm delineations), they will help you 75% of the time and hinder you 25% of the time. I’ve crafted probably close to 1000 4* synths from all NQ mats and can state with confidence that you can HQ them 95% of the time with usually 70-80% of your synths ending at 100%. With those numbers, you don’t want to be hindered 25% of the time.

I haven’t tested 4* from low starting cp, but I did test 3* back in 3.2 while equipped with my usual cross class. I started my synths from all NQ materials and 370 cp which was over 100 cp less than what I normally started with. Just by using the heart ability, whistle while you work, satisfaction, and nymaea’s wheel, it was possible to HQ around 75% of the synths. If you ever wondered why the devs bothered releasing red scrip gear (especially the accessories) that is rather weak in terms of the cp they provide, there’s your answer .

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Specialist abilities are largely useful only if you’re lacking somewhere

Actually, they are not. There is literally no reason to rely on them over simply leveling your remaining crafts to 50 due to the ridiculously RNG restrictions. Innovative Touch is the one exception. Everything else depends so heavily on RNG, you'll lose far more mats then it'll be worth. Specialist abilities were intended to help people who don't want to level additional jobs. They don't. It'll cost you less to buy a levekit compared to all the materials you'll lose or fail to HQ.

[MN_14]

Actually, they are not. There is literally no reason to rely on them over simply leveling your remaining crafts to 50 due to the ridiculously RNG restrictions. Innovative Touch is the one exception. Everything else depends so heavily on RNG, you'll lose far more mats then it'll be worth. Specialist abilities were intended to help people who don't want to level additional jobs. They don't. It'll cost you less to buy a levekit compared to all the materials you'll lose or fail to HQ.

I’m analyzing this purely from a mechanical point of view when you’re crafting. I don’t think any crafter would recommend sticking with a few crafting classes only but that’s another topic altogether. I’m assessing the usefulness of the abilities themselves, which is how they would have been designed. The first assumption is that the main intended user is not going to have all cross-class abilities or are lacking in cp.

Yes, if you only have one class at 50+, you’ll HQ far more reliably with the specialist abilities than without. Your HQ rates are actually not bad if you make liberal use of the heart ability and take the time to HQ as many intermediate materials as possible. You’re allowed up to 50% starting quality on a final 4* craft, but you’ll get by if you can get 4000/13187. The time required and difficulty is the main drawback.

Crafters who have all classes but are equipped with only red scrip gear can HQ reliably even with 370 cp or possibly less. 75% HQ yield at all NQ so you’re golden if you can start with a couple thousand quality.

Of course it is highly recommended that you level all crafters instead as you’ll do way better with cross class and I consider it a given that no one will take the single class approach if they have the time to take the alternative route.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Even from a mechanical perspective, there just isn't any tangible benefit. The entire point was to eliminate the requirement of leveling every crafter for cross-class abilities. This new alternative is so widely inferior, it's rendered completely pointless no matter its potential functionality. When designing a new mechanic, it should sit comfortably with what exists. Take Collectibles, for example. Specialist abilities and the system as a whole accomplished nothing. Ironically, it encouraged Omni-crafting all the more-- precisely the opposite of its intent.

[Alistaire]

Not gonna go back and dig up a thread from that long ago, but I distinctly remember getting into an argument with someone on these boards about the value of the Specialist Only actions. The long and short of it was, they add an extra layer of RNG and require higher stats to achieve results that might, charitably, be within the same ballpark compared to (yet not as good as) what an omnicrafter can achieve using the cross class moves.

As an above poster said, if they were as good or better than the cross class moves, that would be one thing. They do not come as close as they should, so removing them in favor of getting all of the cross class moves can only help people.

Are the Specialist-only actions bad? On their own, no - though there is a lot more RNG with them, which may be considered bad. Compared to the cross class moves? Higher stats needed and more RNG for lesser results means that, contrary to your opinion, they ARE bad, compared to the cross class moves.

Oh I'm very aware of how few people realise how good they are. One other person saying they don't make a difference doesn't do a thing to change my experience with it. And that's having all specialists, and crafting gear for scrips for quite a while on the same gear with characters that had the specialisation, and the ones that don't. It's actually kind of baffling how underestimated they are.