Is progressive content or the community to blame for player skill gap?

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

If I were to play any of the dps classes/jobs I'd probably be one of the "bad players". I just have no interest whatsoever in learning whatever finger gymnastics are required to put out acceptable dps. It's one of the primary reasons I stick to healing. I don't want the stress of micromanaging combos, rotations, x buff that allows me to use y skill, juggling an mp bar, etc. I have enough self-awareness to know when I can dps between heals and when I can't, I know how to not stand in bad, and I'm fairly good at picking up on new mechanics once I've seen them once or twice. That's the extent of my "skill".

Don't get me wrong, I can handle a tank who goes balls to the wall nuts with pulls in dungeons. I can perform adequately or even above average on most of the extreme primals, but at the end of the day I am not looking to "get better" or to "learn to play". What I'm looking for is a relaxing enjoyable gaming experience that isn't going to stress me out. In the interest of not letting my "badness" affect other players I avoid content I know requires "skill", such as anything Savage. I'm not looking to "work hard" or "git gud". I'm looking to enjoy myself without stress and with relatively simple (as far as I'm concerned) gameplay. The WHM and SCH both fit the bill for me. No stress, no expectations outside of keeping folks alive, not standing in bad, and dpsing when incoming damage is light.

[Kosmos992k]

If I were to play any of the dps classes/jobs I'd probably be one of the "bad players". I just have no interest whatsoever in learning whatever finger gymnastics are required to put out acceptable dps. It's one of the primary reasons I stick to healing. I don't want the stress of micromanaging combos, rotations, x buff that allows me to use y skill, juggling an mp bar, etc. I have enough self-awareness to know when I can dps between heals and when I can't, I know how to not stand in bad, and I'm fairly good at picking up on new mechanics once I've seen them once or twice. That's the extent of my "skill".

Don't get me wrong, I can handle a tank who goes balls to the wall nuts with pulls in dungeons. I can perform adequately or even above average on most of the extreme primals, but at the end of the day I am not looking to "get better" or to "learn to play". What I'm looking for is a relaxing enjoyable gaming experience that isn't going to stress me out. In the interest of not letting my "badness" affect other players I avoid content I know requires "skill", such as anything Savage. I'm not looking to "work hard" or "git gud". I'm looking to enjoy myself without stress and with relatively simple (as far as I'm concerned) gameplay. The WHM and SCH both fit the bill for me. No stress, no expectations outside of keeping folks alive, not standing in bad, and dpsing when incoming damage is light.

Agreed 100%.

No need to "git gud" if you already get "it", and you clearly do get "it".

[LineageRazor]

I very much question the assumption that "some players don't want to learn and just want to be carried" as any kind of significant portion of the population. I seriously doubt there's any players out there who are honestly satisfied with being bad. Rather, they don't believe that they are bad in the first place. The ones who dismiss advice from others do so because they believe they are doing just fine, and don't want to change their habits just because some stranger they met in an instance tells them so - especially if that stranger is condescending or rude about it (or they perceive that player to be condescending or rude).

Players want to succeed at the instances they run. Players want to be valuable contributors at the instances they run. The disconnect occurs when you run into players that BELIEVE they are valuable contributors, when they actually aren't. These are the toughest people to teach, because they believe they do not need to be taught. But players that consciously decide to slickly coast through the system, riding on the coat-tails of better players? They do not exist. Or, if they do, are extremely rare. Don't assume that players that repeatedly fail mechanics that you see as easy as not caring. Obviously, they care - they wouldn't be in the instance if they didn't want to win.

Many people also forget that raid awareness is a learned and practiced skill, and that we were all n00bz at one point.

A lot of good advice in this link - though I'll admit I was a bit bemused that around a third or more of it was dedicated to lecturing on having the right mods and how to tune them. The author seems to take it at a given that all raiders will be using mods to alert them to various game mechanics. It's not even, "Oh, hey, you should be using mods to alert you," but rather "Well, obviously you're using mods, but here's how to use them right." Honestly, I find that pretty sad, and I hope that this game never reaches that state. I've never played WoW, but if it requires reliance on such things to be successful in endgame, that speaks pretty poorly, either of the game design, or of the players.

[Dorander]

Skill gaps are related with personal motivation and interactions. In addition to practice and experimentation, most good players in most multiplayer games interact with relevant communities and partake in, or at least look at theory crafting. High level learning doesn't come from in-game tutorials.

This exactly. Lack of motivation to actually learn about anything is why there is a skill gap. That's why there is such a divide between the so called "elitists" and "casuals." The "elitists" take the time to learn how to play optimally in all content, while everyone else just decides they are going to wing it, and get hostile toward anyone who questions their play style.

[Zojha]

I've never played WoW, but if it requires reliance on such things to be successful in endgame, that speaks pretty poorly, either of the game design, or of the players.

I am preeetty sure a great many people are already using the trigger warnings for A11S optical sights, so you can react before you can see the balls.
Right now, it's not standard to use it because, well...it's technically forbidden! But the moment official AddOn support is granted, the floodgates are more or less open and in the end, content designers will design their encounters around these AddOns.

[Kosmos992k]

I am preeetty sure a great many people are already using the trigger warnings for A11S optical sights, so you can react before you can see the balls.
Right now, it's not standard to use it because, well...it's technically forbidden! But the moment official AddOn support is granted, the floodgates are more or less open and in the end, content designers will design their encounters around these AddOns.

I hope not, the designers should never design to functions that are not part of their own game. That disadvantages players without those add-ons by making them (the add-ons) in effect mandatory.

[Yonanja]

I think that if there's anything to blame, it would be the games "lack of challenge". Outside of a handful of encounters, there's really nothing that pushes people to try to perform better. Pretty much all content can be completed while "half-assing" it. I'm not saying the game needs an average difficulty like that of savage or anything, but when your party pretty much can spam one skill each, die left, right and center, mess up almost every mechanic of an encounter, and still manage to beat it? It's a wonder the game even fosters ANY players capable of completing savage XD

[Malzian]

In my opinion there will always be a skill gap. You can point to things like the progression system, lack of proper tutorials, unhelpful communities and all the rest; however, when you get down to it one thing will always be true: those that desire to learn and play well will, those that don't care won't. There's also other considerations such-as people who just will never be as skilled no matter how much they work at it, people who have personal issues that limit their potential to perform any better and people with technical limitations that whose systems just can't manage that top level performance needed to 'git gud', as it were. Ultimately it's a much more complex and nuanced issue than "is it this or that".

[bswpayton]

You guys are trying
TLDR: Your late, if you don't like the way things are handled then leave. The new players are more to blame then the vets from how I see it with their lack of remorse and self awareness. If someone wants to be better they will be, its not something you can fully teach someone.

I cant believe this got almost ten likes just shows that its a group of players that think that they are the only ones that play the game and that its a reason for the elitist stigma.

[DarkB]

So I ask this question, because for instance lets say your playing an rpg well in that rpg pretty much to get to that journey everyone has to take the same path to get to said destination. And I believe this gives you time to go at your own pace learn and develop at your own skill level.

In a game such as this you are expected to at least according to the forums to be on a skill level of people that who have been playing far longer than yourself. That being said while skipping many of the challenging themes along the path to get to the most current challenging content. For instance how this game is set up you have these options for everything pre hw, put up a party in pf, run unsync , or competently skip any of the old challenging content. Which means no raids before Alexander realistically nobody does binding coils if they do ,its unsync, or said player would have to have patience to wait hours to get it in a duty finder. No prior experience with 24 main raids, unless you que up on a Sunday and get lucky. And no real legitimate experience with any type of primals in the Arr series if all ran unsync unless you include hard moods which is a far cry from extremes. The only real challenge before hw for someone that doesnt go out of their way to do these alternative content options would be aurum vale and then that isnt even required either. So that being said I just wonder how the community expects someone who skipped all this content , to be good when they get to ravana, or they get to any of the other primals. You are essentially going from cake walk content into something that's suppose to be challenging although according to the forums everything in the game is easy.

I mention the rpg because for instance ff 15 I havent finished it yet but essentially everyone has the same path there with no skip routes there are no other routes, you have to progress from boss to boss learning from each. I just wanted to somewhat defend players that haven't been around that long and just how they get constantly ragged on. Yea its players that never use fire 3, or tanks that don't hold arggo, but I think this is more rare than the ones who actually want to learn how to play the game. And if I read these forums before I started I prob wouldn't have joined the game because it seems as tho people don't really care about new players are if they want to play this game step by step. If you want people to get on your level then remember how long it took you to get to said level, or that maybe you didnt come to the game when their was content that was considered irrelevant and you had time to do and practice all of it to the point you are at in the game now. Ive played my part to running people through unsync stuff but its literally the only way for trials, rushing dungeons for new players, I actually feel bad about this sometimes. Not speaking up when I could asking why a player isnt using their aoes, and things of that nature. But I dont leave duties I've never cussed anyone out, I have always given people a chance and Id like to think that makes better players. Instead of telling people how they suck and that every piece of content in the game your playing is easy and if they dont catch on then they are just horrible.

To be a good sports player you practice, to make good grades in college you study, to be a good parent you work on it, so the same goes here you cant expect people to skip so much content and then be a good player and this isnt a jump potion thread. I'm actually for jump potions because I know whats gona happen to hw when new stuff comes out anyone who wants to go through that content will be left in the dust because its not the current thing to do. Sorry for the long rant people prob want even read all of this but its just simply a call to not be so quick to judge, and not always look through content from your own eyes alone.

Alright, i know where you coming from, you have a good amount of valid points if not all, but let me tell you something.
This game is divided into two, the skill you need to perform well on your class | the skill you need to perform to go against content (boss|raids|dungeons).

- Now lets talk about the first one, skill you need on your class.
First thing first you need to want to put effort into learning your class, just queueing up into some dungeon and try mashin button is not going to get you anywhere.
Now if your intent is to get better into the game, then keep reading, if you dont care and you just want to be carried you can already stop reading here.

If you wanna become at the same level as other players that play since years, you dont have to do anything much, just practice for at best 2 days? there are guides online that talks about every possible rotation on each dps class, how to heal, how to tank, enmity priorty skills, how to pull. everything. It takes litterally 2 days to watch some videos and practice on dummies. Get a parser, and ask around or check around the usual dps damage numbers, and try to get as close as you can on that (of course it depends on your iLvL, but if you still can perform the rotations well, you are fine).

In my opinion this is the most important thing about this game, so many people just dont care to learn their classes and perform well. The mechanics are easy to learn, this game doesnt have hard mechanics, on any content you can pick, if someone on voice tells you how to avoid stuff and when to move, after 10 tries you can do that content without a single mistake. So the "hard" part is combining your performance on your job with learning the mechanic.

But again i cant stress enough on the first point, you need to learn your class first, how to be proficent and good, how to not have other people carry you. and this is EXTREMELY easy, which is why it annoys me when i see people going around with full i260 not knowing rotation and pulling out 700 dps. It just means that they didnt care to spend at least 1 day to check their rotation, setup their toolbar with the skills and practice for some hours on a dummy. If you dont want to do this, well then you cant really blame anyone else. There is so much content out there to put you in condition to learn your class, that is simply ridicolous that there are still people that are so bad, its just unacceptable.

- Now lets talk Mechanics.

Mechanics in this game are not that hard, some of them are harder because of latency, your ping and what you see on screen sometimes is not what SE server see. But other than that, lets take your Ravana example, each battle is different and has its own mechanic, some are the same and they follow a pattern over the years, they have the same visual feedback to help you understand when to move out of an AOE damage spell, or when to stack with the group, these are quite easy to grasp, but in general the best way to learn mechanics is again to watch videos and guides, xiv wiki has a video for every single battle in game, well explained, you can also ask someone to help you, or even open here in the forum a thread askin info about a specific fight and mechanic.

While as i said i agree on mostly what you said, i dont really think that "skipping" old content makes you a worse player. To be a good player you just need to apply and do what i told you, havin beaten ravana or bismarck extreme doesnt really count into your success towards clearing a10s for example.

Every fight is a new learning path, so take these as that. But remember, learn your class first. A very good training ground where people dont stress a lot are dungeons, learn to perform there, reaction time on healing, not losing hate on mobs as tank, good dps on single target boss, good dps on multi pulls.

If you think about it, its all there, the game is very very straightforward and easy, and in the end if you need help, just ask for it, nobody will deny you that.

Being able to have your class under controll is the #1 priority. Mechanics are easy to learn.

Most of the people are LAZY to an embarassing level. to learn your class it will take not more than 3 days, thats how easy it is. but you need to want it, you need to not wait for someone to help you, go out and find guides, use google, type whatever job you wanna learn "drg xiv rotation" for example.

goodluck