Is progressive content or the community to blame for player skill gap?

[Mirateski]

I recently got a clear in a9s when I, as pld, in shield oath 100% of the time, did more dps than one of the new bards. (the other, also new, bard, did double that while also learning the alarum mechanic)

Did we clear it? Absolutely. Did they learn? Probably. Was it worth it? Christ, no.

Back when I was a tiny baby scrub, I hit lv50 and unlocked ex primals. Hell yeah, I thought, I'm gonna clear this new thing. And I queued for it. In df. Somewhere a mentor is crying even though this was before mentor roulette.

Ruru ex I read the wiki because I knew these were challenging encounters when synched. We wiped three times, my co-healer was amazingly patient, and we cleared. and on Titan ex, partly because of the cast problem and partly because my ping is a piece of shit and I lag like a motherf, I couldn't last more than three or four landslides in. So after like, twenty minutes of wiping or somesuch, during which I was trying desperately to put what I'd read into practice, I got kicked.

Honestly? I deserved it. I was a terrible healer at the time, and that, plus my lack of knowledge, plus my lag, meant I almost certainly wasn't worth the effort of teaching. And that will always be there for pretty much everything for some people, I think. In order to know you need to improve, you first need to be told that your rotation is shite, as they probably say somewhere.

If the community won't speak up, then it's the community. But they do, almost always, at least eventually. And if a player still won't improve, then it's on them. Pretty much the only exception I will make is a new non-pld tank in their first intstance that needs a tankswap not having 'voke, cause the game never ever tells you that you 100% require this one very specific skill. Hell I've seen healers that outright refuse to get swiftcast (!) and that won't break a run like not having voke will.

[viewtyjoe]

In my experience, it's a player issue. A large chunk of the player base has no desire to learn how to be good and wants no expectations on their performance, and is unwilling to change. Dungeons, 24-mans, and story versions of raids and primals are built for them. If someone wants to learn, they will seek knowledge from other players or outside resources and learn, and they will join the serious players in being good at their job. The players who have no desire to learn their job will always be problems.

[PArcher]

There are a lot of players out there who want to put in the minimum amount of effort but get the same rewards as those who put in a ton of time and effort into getting them. Why bother learning the fight when you can join a clear party and just barely squeak by, then join farm parties and get carried to your rewards?

Most of the time, its a player issue, not necessarily a game issue (some things could be shown better by the game, and the Novice Hall is a step in the right direction). Those who want to learn, to get better, will. They will find people to ask questions, find others to run content with. Look up guides and fights and try to do their best so they aren't carried. Make friends with good players and learn from them. Funnily enough, the really good players often will stop and answer questions and help people who genuinely want to learn if they can at the moment, or will suggest other people they can ask for help if they can't help with a specific problem or are too busy right then. I know if someone comes and asks me for advice on a fight, or with general job questions, I'll try to help out.

Those who don't want to learn, don't want to put the effort into the game, won't. They will barely push buttons in a dungeon run, stand in AoEs, barely care about their gear, and then whine that no one is helping (read: carrying) them. I meet a ton of these people every day; any suggestions to better themselves, asking to not stand in AoEs, to do mechanics properly (and explaining exactly how to do them right), rotation suggestions and so on are ignored, or you receive hate for suggesting they are not perfect as they think they are ("its my sub and I can play as I want!" Hate these people)

There are people who genuinely try, but just aren't good enough. Not everyone is going to be good at everything. Sometimes lag happens too. I can't blame people in these situations unless they keep making the same mistake(s) over and over and over again (then its clear they just aren't "getting" it and need a suggestion on a different way to approach it, or are just being stubbornly bad). But people here usually know their faults an apologize for them, or are plainly trying to get better.

[bswpayton]

You guys are trying to pass the blame to the veterans. I say stop that. As a player that has mostly played consistently since 2.0 launch I can say that if the new players are so desperate to learn the new content then find other new players willing to do it and don't try to leech off the veterans with higher gear to drag you

How is one a burdun on you to keeping the game that we all enjoy alive, you know like paying a sub to keep SE making content. Coming from a mentor to say that new players are a burdun is just wrong I am a mentor also be it trade craft but I try to help in all content that I know. No one said that others are here to carter to everyone Im just simply sayin that its kinda a shared burden on game design and the community as a whole for lack of tolerance for one another.

I've already said before that for instance if a mentor sense I guess you threw that in there, ques up for a mentor roulette and decides to stay how is the new player that's tryin to learn the fight at fault instead of the mentor that qued up knowing the potential of what a mentor roulette really means. This is what Ive personally seen when it comes to trails , if you are expecting to have an easy time then you kinda wasted your own time, because if I que up as a mentor and get an extreme primal Im not gona assume ill have an easy ride every time, its not just for me to get a fast que or a mount at the end even tho some treat it as such.

I have had one person every say I know what I'm doing dont worry bout me and it wasnt a new player, silence is common but aggressive remarks for me personally have come from those witout any icon , or the occasional mentor which Id really say its the no icon players that have been the worse in my experience. And Im not blaming things on vet players Im just simply saying that I see all these post bashing the player base and some of that blame has to be shared in the community and I gave my own examples where I've taken part in this as well its just an acknowledgement of truth not so much a pointing the finger.

[Tarta]

IGud

That. +1

I come from old school MMO era. Everquest - good luck finding proper kill videos that weren't complete trash or weren't swamped with a dozen player characters swamping the screen.
You had to do a fight to learn a fight.
Just do it.
Keep doing it.
Eventually you learn it.
Once you learn it you improve the fight, you access shortcuts once you reach phases faster. You make the fight yours.
Lots of people don't have the time to do this anymore. I sure don't. I used to, but now...not sure.
So instead you use kill videos to skip 12-15 hours of wipes and learning and get into a particular strat to kill the boss. It's a shortcut. It doesn't breed better players however. It can over long periods of time, but it won't off the bat.

[Lollie]

Problem. New players running dungeons with veterans are dragged through at speed by players who despite level/ilvl sync are still way more powerful than what the dungeon is balanced for. So, actually, new players may not see all the mechanics that they need to, and certainly have less experience of dodging them than they should.

Valid point, however at level 34 (Titan Normal) players have been exposed to out of sync cast bars and non-orange groups targets, Ifrit says hello. If players are running story content unsynced, which is not available to roulettes, they are handy capping themselves. That is not a community problem, that is a them problem the community is not going to be able to fix.

To add onto that while yes people should avoid aoes its no big deal in dungeons if you do get hit by them you don't die and you hardly take any damage so people get used to the idea that its no big deal. then they step in an ex primal or savage and stand in an aoe and die instantly or wipe the raid.

Which would go back to my direct statement, I draw the line at waiting for people to learn that getting smacked with something isn't the best idea, that is something they should be fully capable of figuring out on their own time without assistance, if they cared at all.

Pause.

I really need to point out something here: Titan was a massive wall for the longest time for a good majority of the community (or at least it was for my server). It was the first thing that made you dodge that was actually punishing - you get it wrong, you fall off with no chance of coming back. It's also one of the first mechanics the game gives you that the animation/skill effect lasts longer than the cast. Not moving in time for the cast is what gets most people killed because they go off the skill animation, especially people that do not know focus target is a thing and may not be looking at the boss the whole time. They will undoubtedly keep failing the mechanic, confused why they failed it; clearly they moved out of the way on their screen before the animation finished. Until someone would point out to them it's based on cast, not animation. This is absolutely one of the most important things to learn in the game that you encounter pretty late; most encounters are avoiding a giant orange area that vanishes when the cast is done.

Just to this extent, I'd have to say the blame lays on both; the game failing to show that it's also casts and cast bars that are important, not just getting out of the effected areas. It would then also fall to blame the community, or rather those present at such failings, that would rather leave than to not even try to help the person to understand. Yeah, it gets annoying typing out things several times, but not doing anything to help progress others is a contribution toward keeping the skill level and experience level of the overall community low.

There's still a lot of other factors to why the overall skill and experience gaps are the way they are, but this is just one aspect of it that I really wanted to speak up on.

First of no this is not the first introduction to off timed animations even basing the assessment off the lvl 34 titan normal fight, eruptions are the first exposure to that in Ifrit, and no realistically I would not expect someone in the Titan normal fight to dodge everything perfectly. Ifrit even exposes you to the concept that enemies can not only hit you but alter your location. The only new elements Titan normal introduced were the landslide attack itself which is arguable since a) other enemies use line attacks (wolves) b) the kiddie bars are up on the first one so if you get hit by it you know its going to push you. c) you are going to dodge it and never find out nor need to know it pushes you. Again if players are unsyncing this fight its a them problem not a community problem.

Using the example that Titan(Hard) was a gate when it came out is a red herring argument. The fight was designed and tested in a no lag environment and once the devs realized this lack of foresight made adjustments over time to make it much more lenient in that regard, clear rates sky rocketed afterwards. Using the players don't know its the cast bars that matter argument does not hold up in lvl 50EX content in my opinion either, (feel free to disagree). Hard mode primals where again you can't run them unsynced via roulette, where your party fill is going to come from if you are lacking people, is the appropriate place to have this pointed out and absorbed.

If you are running them unsynced that means that a) if you had decent friends they shouldn't mind running something a few times (even unsynced and just standing there to draw the fight out) so you can see what is going on, b) you are over leveled and unsynced it and if you have that mentality why should I expect you to want to run anything else at the intended release difficulty c) let someone use you for your tomes bonus and inversely you used them for an easy clear which you didn't care to learn to do properly.

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And now back to the heart of the matter, community. Please feel free to instruct anyone and EVERYONE you see driving in a manner other than lawfully designated how they should correct their habits in a constructive and friendly tone. Even if you are likely to never be on the same road as them again, as opposed to just adjusting to said non-lawful conformity so as to met your end goal of getting yourself from A to B, regardless of whether you have been properly trained on motor vehicle operation yourself (as is the case of most people explaining EX fights in a random party getting it wrong in some manner or another).

PS: Yes the raging and gitguds need to stop. Just leave if you are going to get that upset and be a prick when someone under performs to your standards, (not aimed at anyone in particular).

[Yukiko]

I recently got a clear in a9s when I, as pld, in shield oath 100% of the time, did more dps than one of the new bards. (the other, also new, bard, did double that while also learning the alarum mechanic) *snip*

Who had higher iLvL ?

[Jayjohn]

This game hand holds you on how to do mechanics. People should actually do Guildhests and read the actual message that pops up because the literally tells you to move out of stuff. A large majority of the mechanics in this game usually reused and given an extra twists (How many divebomb iterations have we had so far?)

Reading tooltips on abilities literally tell you what they do and how they combo off. Character leveling is so mind numbingly boring in the early levels because you are pressing one button, by the time you get your next ability people should be like "OH what does this do? How does this work with my other abilities?"

[bswpayton]

I really dont understand the references to some of the normal mood references to titan or ifrit you may see similar animations but thats about it the extreme versions are 50 times different challenge wise, the only possible way to die in ifrit is if you forget to tell someone that doesnt no to hit the nail

[Kirhs]

There are a lot of mechanics that the game does not prepare you for when you start trying harder content.

Just look at the number of varying icons that can land on top of a players head that give no indication of what is about to happen until the effect fires, and even then what happens may not be particularly clear the first time it occurs to a new person.

Once you have the experienced a fight's mechanics they can become almost trivial and I see many people fall into the trap of saying "You suck" due to someone's inexperience. Just look at the tales from the duty finder thread for all kinds of examples.

I am not smart enough to know what the real solution for this is from a design standpoint but from a player standpoint when I find myself starting to point the finger: I try and remember how many could have been pointing back at me when I had issues with the content.