Is progressive content or the community to blame for player skill gap?

[thegreatonemal]

MMOs don't teach you how to play the game properly. Most players of the game are here because the name of the game is Final Fantasy and until you hit the level cap in an given expansion it plays like a single player rpg with multiplayer elements every now and then. For those that know this is an mmo treat it as such they do the outside research they come here to look the guides on how to play your class and as such the game is designed around that.

[Yukiko]

Yesterday: more than 300 minutes DF waiting for "The Weeping City of Mhach"
Not only old Content becomes a marathon...

There is little to no motivation for doing old content again!
SE tried to use prickwalls with relicts and made it even worse because now you just farm it once and then you will never see it again...
Relict was just one example, look at how many stopped doing "wondrous tales".
The more gamble SE adds into the "progress" or "target goal" more and more players will just turn their back on it...
At beginning (2.0) a lot were farming pets or mounts, but at current state its not possible to collect all of them (look at pvp ranking)... you know why pokemon is famous for years?
Square Enix having good ideas, but they have awful taste of balancing!
When i see korean and japan players who love to grind things, saying they need a break and are not motivated to do those things in ffxiv, you have to question if SE is on the right path.

SE trying to defend on fanfest with showing us 24h grindings (example atma) and telling us "its not as rare as you think" but i do not think that motivates many to come back or start the quest again... Its like telling you all is ok and you do something wrong! When it comes to gambling, the fun stops and sorry but RNG is pure gambling!

Edit: I forgotten to say something about the weeklies - special because i mentioned "The Weeping City of Mhach"
It helps, but only one or 2 days after weekly reset because it IS a weekly cap... i can understand why they cap it, but that way it doesnt help much against the problem. Still, it is better than nothing!

[Kosmos992k]

Yesterday: more than 300 minutes DF waiting for "The Weeping City of Mhach"
Not only old Content becomes a marathon...

There is little to no motivation for doing old content again!**snip**

Indeed and wow that's a long wait, I will have zero chance of running that content in future based on this.

One thing that I think they could do is create some level 50, one star craft recipes such minions, glamours, weapons, special foods, special dyes and even mounts, and have each crafting recipe include at least one material that can only be obtained in dungeons. Recipes could require more than one of the material as needed, or appropriate, and each new material should be unique to the dungeon (and/or the hard version of the same dungeon) it is found in. Of course recipes for consumable items would be most effective since demand would never completely vanish.

This materials should be untradeable and market_prohibited so that if you want to craft the thing, you have to actually run the dungeon needed to get the material - there was something like this in Haukke Manor if I remember correctly. With every second patch, some new craftable items need to be added that use these materials.

Finally, these materials should not be available when running unsync'd, and will be awarded after the last boss fight.

Many will complain of being forced to run the dungeons. Except you're not forced, since the craftable items are entirely optional, and you might even be able to buy the crafted items themselves (not the materials) from the MB.

This would bring some motivated players back to the dungeons. I am sure many would still stay away, but increasing the number of players in this content would help new players and bring older players back to things they may not remember any more.

By adding new craftable items that use the materials with every other patch, SE refreshes the incentive to run the content to get the material. Otherwise as these items start to saturate the player base, the content would die again.

This would also support crafters to some extent as well.

To add onto that while yes people should avoid aoes its no big deal in dungeons if you do get hit by them you don't die and you hardly take any damage so people get used to the idea that its no big deal. then they step in an ex primal or savage and stand in an aoe and die instantly or wipe the raid.

Agreed, but that too is fixable. Level sync was meant to keep older content in balance to prevent overgeared players from ignoring mechanics and the like. Level sync should be tighter to ensure that things in old dungeons actually retain their original sting and danger.

[Chronons]

Snip

I completely agree, giving an incentive is the most appropriate way to generate interest. Id like to see mentor roulettes specifically for old primal fights or other content that is hard to que for synched (like Weeping apparently). Make them count as double towards the mentor mount or give higher amount of tomes and I think the problem would be solved.

[Laerune]

Its both, in my opinion. The game itself hardly teaches the player anything about their class or what one must in a dungeon that requires more then the basic stuff. This is why we have alot of:

- DPS players who can not do the required DPS that their class should be doing, the developers have said many times that when they make a encounter, they do not add the dps that a Healer can bring to a fight. This means that for alot of groups, killing a boss requires DPS+Healer, which in reality it should only require the DPS, if they were able to preform as the developers intended.

The community is to blame aswell, somehow we as the mmorpg community turned from a group of players that want to help our fellow players improve into people who just leave after we see an newcomer or after have a wipe. Maybe its SE fault for making us grind the same dungeons for tokens or maybe we as players have just become impatient. I have noticed that we do not want to teach the newcomers, that we hold double standards when it comes to progressing. Everyone was new and everyone started out with less skill, the benefit that we had is, that since it was new we could make mistakes and keep trying or someone helped us. The newcomers that come after will not be as lucky and from what I have witnessed on this forum and ingame as an mentor, I see them being verballiy abused or demeaned.

I do think there is a third factor, the player themselves. Even if the community is very helpfull and the game does teach the player about how to play the game, this will still not help them, if the player himself/herself does not want to improve. Wether we like it or hate it, there are players that want to play the game on their terms, the BLM who casts only Ice Magick, the Bard that does not want to use any of their Songs, the healer that prefers to stand and do nothing, instead of doing damage or the tank that thinks that defensive cooldowns are not worth it. Those type of players are still here and will stay here.

[Maddonious]

You guys are trying to pass the blame to the veterans. I say stop that. As a player that has mostly played consistently since 2.0 launch I can say that if the new players are so desperate to learn the new content then find other new players willing to do it and don't try to leech off the veterans with higher gear to drag you through it if its so important to your "experience".

If you feel the way they do things is not in line with your expectations find a different way.

You forget they are not here to service you and your desires. They are players who have responsibilities outside of the game and don't have time to do content the slow way or retread the old ground they have walked over thousands of times because you demanded it/needed it. They have goals to make themselves better in other ways in the game that take time. The reason most content is optional is because SE realized this flaw in the game and that players did not want to do the same content 10000 times over to help bring up the bottom line of the player base.

If you truly can not find help I do feel for you, i've been there but that just means you need to find players who are more friendly and wont treat you like a number in their FC or LS (if said LS is based on this theme).

As an MMO you are late to the party and therefore do this the way the vets do them or spends countless hours trying to do things the "pure" way. Altho that's a lie too because unless you do content at minimum ilvl the dungeons/ex content are still much easier now due to higher gear levels then they were when they first came out.

Every MMO has worked like this and players should do some research and ask around about why its like this rather then be against it. It's progress. It happens in every MMO where old content is phased out making way for content that is on par with the rewards the players of higher level require to further better themselves.

I am a mentor. I may come off as a bit aggressive sometimes, I know this, but when I see a player in a dungeon or primal using a rotation that severely limits their dps ouput I try to give them advice. Guess what that advice is met with? I either get complete silence back with no change to their rotation or feedback about it or I get told to mind my own business for trying to make a player better then they already are.

I try to help still but to a much less degree because no matter how you word something to another player about what they could do to get more out of their role you will only ever sound like a condescending twat to them when you had no ill intentions in the first place. They always see what you said as "oh so hes saying I suck".

In the end its up to the individual to get better, to want to be better. Tooltips tell you everything you need to know about certain skills and traits yet most ignore them. It is due to their own ignorance that they are falling behind and it has nothing to do with the game itself.

A player mentioned titan and how they could not teach someone basic skills. That is true. Some things in this game you just cant teach like reaction time, common sense. I can only watch as someone can get hit by the same mechanic so many times before I just give up and rather not waste my time when I could be leveling another job or crafting an expensive gear piece to sell or actually helping a player that wants to be better rather then think the game revolves around them.

Thats the biggest issue with the new players of the MMO genre. They don't see themselves as a burden to other players. They think they are the king of the crop and the game is ment to serve them when in reality they should have the opposite mindset and see themselves as a player who may burden others. All the long lasting/High skill players have this trait when traversing new content or walking down paths not taken yet. I rarely see anyone apologies for messing something up or taking responsibility for their actions. I still do cause when I mess up im taking time away from other players and I am aware of what i just did unlike most of the playerbase.

I rarely see it but the minute I see someone feel remorseful about what they just did and apologies for their actions, maybe even explaining that they are new and are getting used to it so forgive them if they mess up further, I will carry that person on my tiny lalafellin shoulders and do whatever they want cause I can tell they have potential by the way they felt remorse. (Obviously when I have free time to spare.)

TLDR: Your late, if you don't like the way things are handled then leave. The new players are more to blame then the vets from how I see it with their lack of remorse and self awareness. If someone wants to be better they will be, its not something you can fully teach someone.

[bswpayton]

You guys are trying to pass the blame to the veterans. I say stop that. As a player that has mostly played consistently since 2.0 launch I can say that if the new players are so desperate to learn the new content then find other new players willing to do it and don't try to leech off the veterans with higher gear to drag you

How is one a burdun on you to keeping the game that we all enjoy alive, you know like paying a sub to keep SE making content. Coming from a mentor to say that new players are a burdun is just wrong I am a mentor also be it trade craft but I try to help in all content that I know. No one said that others are here to carter to everyone Im just simply sayin that its kinda a shared burden on game design and the community as a whole for lack of tolerance for one another.

I've already said before that for instance if a mentor sense I guess you threw that in there, ques up for a mentor roulette and decides to stay how is the new player that's tryin to learn the fight at fault instead of the mentor that qued up knowing the potential of what a mentor roulette really means. This is what Ive personally seen when it comes to trails , if you are expecting to have an easy time then you kinda wasted your own time, because if I que up as a mentor and get an extreme primal Im not gona assume ill have an easy ride every time, its not just for me to get a fast que or a mount at the end even tho some treat it as such.

I have had one person every say I know what I'm doing dont worry bout me and it wasnt a new player, silence is common but aggressive remarks for me personally have come from those witout any icon , or the occasional mentor which Id really say its the no icon players that have been the worse in my experience. And Im not blaming things on vet players Im just simply saying that I see all these post bashing the player base and some of that blame has to be shared in the community and I gave my own examples where I've taken part in this as well its just an acknowledgement of truth not so much a pointing the finger.

[bswpayton]

You guys are trying
TLDR: Your late, if you don't like the way things are handled then leave. The new players are more to blame then the vets from how I see it with their lack of remorse and self awareness. If someone wants to be better they will be, its not something you can fully teach someone.

I cant believe this got almost ten likes just shows that its a group of players that think that they are the only ones that play the game and that its a reason for the elitist stigma.

[Mirateski]

I recently got a clear in a9s when I, as pld, in shield oath 100% of the time, did more dps than one of the new bards. (the other, also new, bard, did double that while also learning the alarum mechanic)

Did we clear it? Absolutely. Did they learn? Probably. Was it worth it? Christ, no.

Back when I was a tiny baby scrub, I hit lv50 and unlocked ex primals. Hell yeah, I thought, I'm gonna clear this new thing. And I queued for it. In df. Somewhere a mentor is crying even though this was before mentor roulette.

Ruru ex I read the wiki because I knew these were challenging encounters when synched. We wiped three times, my co-healer was amazingly patient, and we cleared. and on Titan ex, partly because of the cast problem and partly because my ping is a piece of shit and I lag like a motherf, I couldn't last more than three or four landslides in. So after like, twenty minutes of wiping or somesuch, during which I was trying desperately to put what I'd read into practice, I got kicked.

Honestly? I deserved it. I was a terrible healer at the time, and that, plus my lack of knowledge, plus my lag, meant I almost certainly wasn't worth the effort of teaching. And that will always be there for pretty much everything for some people, I think. In order to know you need to improve, you first need to be told that your rotation is shite, as they probably say somewhere.

If the community won't speak up, then it's the community. But they do, almost always, at least eventually. And if a player still won't improve, then it's on them. Pretty much the only exception I will make is a new non-pld tank in their first intstance that needs a tankswap not having 'voke, cause the game never ever tells you that you 100% require this one very specific skill. Hell I've seen healers that outright refuse to get swiftcast (!) and that won't break a run like not having voke will.

[Yukiko]

I recently got a clear in a9s when I, as pld, in shield oath 100% of the time, did more dps than one of the new bards. (the other, also new, bard, did double that while also learning the alarum mechanic) *snip*

Who had higher iLvL ?