Is progressive content or the community to blame for player skill gap?

[bswpayton]

they won't be thrust into , .

Well of course but with how dungeons work , its pretty much nothing like , some of the extreme primals are so its very possible that someone could either jump to storm bold never doing any of the harder content before it. Or other players will deal with wats going on now with Arr content , people will run all of the primals unsync and cake walk over them like whats happening now already. And once they get to the end of storm blood they would of had no experience with extreme such content. There wasnt a single dungeon or hardmood that I can say that prepared me for any extreme primal when I first started, now I see what people mean by mid-core content its like going from the easy last msq quest dungeons to an extreme primal are night and day. The hard mood versions of these arent even close to preparing u for the extreme versions either, its actually pretty int interesting how wide that gap even is.

[Watachy]

Snip

Sounds like real life.

- Want that job ? You need 5 years experience !
- But i just finished sch...
- 5 five years experience and below 25 yo.
- Flash News: unemployement is nearly 30% for 20/28yo people

Lel dude

[Ghastly]

There's a skill gap and there's an experience gap. I think a lot of people tend to confuse the two (especially here), and that the skill gap isn't nearly as wide as most people think.

The experience gap is caused by impatient players who can't be bothered to teach others how to get through content, and who leave at the first sign of trouble. This causes a situation where PF is filled with parties that require experience to get in. This leads to a situation where the only way to get experience is to have experience, which leaves new players who don't have connections in the dust.

Cactuar is one of the best servers because we don't mind running clear parties for 2-3 hours even if we don't clear, the experience matters.
Would be interesting if clearing primals with bonus increased bird drop rate to like 50%

There would be more clears, more people helping new people, etc

[bswpayton]

Cactuar is one of the best servers because we don't mind running clear parties for 2-3 hours even if we don't clear, the experience matters.
Would be interesting if clearing primals with bonus increased bird drop rate to like 50%

There would be more clears, more people helping new people, etc

Well I guess thats maybe what this cross server party finder intends to do I know that's coming around I'm just afraid that it will be like it is on my server and just a bunch of parties posting up unsync runs.

[Clethoria]

There's a skill gap and there's an experience gap. I think a lot of people tend to confuse the two (especially here), and that the skill gap isn't nearly as wide as most people think.

The experience gap is caused by impatient players who can't be bothered to teach others how to get through content, and who leave at the first sign of trouble.

I ran Longstop (Hard) with a friend via Duty Finder because we figured it would be an easy enough run and it wasn't a big deal to gather an entire party. Healer DCs, Tank decides to just leave, new healer comes around- sees there's no Tank, leaves, comes back again likely because que and leaves again when seeing it's us again. May as well had made a full party because we ended up getting people we knew to join us.

This is why I tell new players about PF and encouraging others to join a (mainly my) Free Company as well as make friends.

[Lollie]

To answer the points raised in brief using the Titan example. I cannot teach people that standing in an aoe is going to hurt if they have not learned so by that point. If enough of the party cannot evade the initial landslide/wotl that is not a teaching mechanics issue, it is a cannot perform the basic requirements of the game issue. Just having more of them does not significantly change the difficulty outside of coverage area. This should have been learned in the first dungeon or prior. To an extent beyond that I am willing to attempt to teach the mechanics of a fight that new people may have not been exposed to up to that point. Repeatedly failling that beyond the value I gain out of it (satisfaction of teaching others/bonus rewards/comradery which in a roulette enviornment I don't really derive any/odds of directly easing difficulty of further attempts, again in a roulette enviornment no value.) I will leave.

Yes, as someone who has never had their sub laps since release of 2.0 I will admit that yes I probably spent hours on this stuff when it was new, and yes it isn't worth as much now as it was when it was new, and harder to find more people who want to learn it in like. However I did so with the people I enteract with on a daily or weekly basis that I actually enjoy playing with specifically in that context when it had greater value. Outside of that roulette content has the community value of passing someone else on the street to get to where you are going.

Roulettes are bait, offering rewards for rerunning content the established playerbase (people who have been around for a while to run content with deminished value to them). If there is no value outside of the bait and the bait is unlikely to be rewarded due to repeat failures there is no bait. If said reward was not based on completion but time investment in a reasonable amount for the time input. Then you might actually see an improvement in people sticking around. This may invite another problem though, people messing fights up on purpose or squatting because the reward is guaranteed.

From a community standpoint, being all inclusive and understanding has never been a proven successful model. There are required levels of conformity that one must meet to be successful in a community communication is one of these. To a certain extent it gets taught yes and the larger the size the more permientations can be alotted for accents giving way to languages. As these permientations grow eventually they get to the point they are too large for an individual to reap benefits from being a part of when put into a small scattered sampling from the group as a whole due to inability to effectively communicate. So we make subsects of the community that we can limit the varience therein and by extension care more about, friends, family, neighbors, etc. which hopefully in a working community web the whole thing together by sebsects shared not in common with the individuals that make them up. As long as the community as a whole can sustain itself ie subscriptions justify further game development and operation (which they more then do) and the subsects I am a part of are thriving, ie friends clearing content run specefically for them. I could care less about the rest of you, and by extension may even not like you for hindering, my personal growth, or the growth of my friends, by not aclimating to the community based on what the community decides is adiquate learning time/quality to meet the average. If and when that time/quality allotment becomes to steep for entry to the point the community degrades below sustainability, or even nears it, I will stretch my interests further out. If that expected average for example is currently the ability to clear content for the no or little value there is to an individual outside your subsects in 3 attempts and is sustainable as a community. Then that is what is expected of you as a member of the community, which may or may not be less leanient then what is expected of you within smaller subsects you are a member of.

tldr: If I am not getting anything out of it, currecy, emotional satifaction of some sort, added community value to the extent I can get use out of. I could care less about you one way or the other, until you are a detriment to one of those at which point I don't like you varying on the severity of detriment.

[Kosmos992k]

To answer the points raised in brief using the Titan example. I cannot teach people that standing in an aoe is going to hurt if they have not learned so by that point. If enough of the party cannot evade the initial landslide/wotl that is not a teaching mechanics issue, it is a cannot perform the basic requirements of the game issue. This should have been learned in the first dungeon or prior.

Problem. New players running dungeons with veterans are dragged through at speed by players who despite level/ilvl sync are still way more powerful than what the dungeon is balanced for. So, actually, new players may not see all the mechanics that they need to, and certainly have less experience of dodging them than they should.

[thegreatonemal]

Problem. New players running dungeons with veterans are dragged through at speed by players who despite level/ilvl sync are still way more powerful than what the dungeon is balanced for. So, actually, new players may not see all the mechanics that they need to, and certainly have less experience of dodging them than they should.

To add onto that while yes people should avoid aoes its no big deal in dungeons if you do get hit by them you don't die and you hardly take any damage so people get used to the idea that its no big deal. then they step in an ex primal or savage and stand in an aoe and die instantly or wipe the raid.

[JunseiKei]

To answer the points raised in brief using the Titan example. I cannot teach people that standing in an aoe is going to hurt if they have not learned so by that point. If enough of the party cannot evade the initial landslide/wotl that is not a teaching mechanics issue, it is a cannot perform the basic requirements of the game issue. Just having more of them does not significantly change the difficulty outside of coverage area. This should have been learned in the first dungeon or prior. To an extent beyond that I am willing to attempt to teach the mechanics of a fight that new people may have not been exposed to up to that point. Repeatedly failling that beyond the value I gain out of it (satisfaction of teaching others/bonus rewards/comradery which in a roulette enviornment I don't really derive any/odds of directly easing difficulty of further attempts, again in a roulette enviornment no value.) I will leave.

Pause.

I really need to point out something here: Titan was a massive wall for the longest time for a good majority of the community (or at least it was for my server). It was the first thing that made you dodge that was actually punishing - you get it wrong, you fall off with no chance of coming back. It's also one of the first mechanics the game gives you that the animation/skill effect lasts longer than the cast. Not moving in time for the cast is what gets most people killed because they go off the skill animation, especially people that do not know focus target is a thing and may not be looking at the boss the whole time. They will undoubtedly keep failing the mechanic, confused why they failed it; clearly they moved out of the way on their screen before the animation finished. Until someone would point out to them it's based on cast, not animation. This is absolutely one of the most important things to learn in the game that you encounter pretty late; most encounters are avoiding a giant orange area that vanishes when the cast is done.

Just to this extent, I'd have to say the blame lays on both; the game failing to show that it's also casts and cast bars that are important, not just getting out of the effected areas. It would then also fall to blame the community, or rather those present at such failings, that would rather leave than to not even try to help the person to understand. Yeah, it gets annoying typing out things several times, but not doing anything to help progress others is a contribution toward keeping the skill level and experience level of the overall community low.

There's still a lot of other factors to why the overall skill and experience gaps are the way they are, but this is just one aspect of it that I really wanted to speak up on.

[Lollie]

Problem. New players running dungeons with veterans are dragged through at speed by players who despite level/ilvl sync are still way more powerful than what the dungeon is balanced for. So, actually, new players may not see all the mechanics that they need to, and certainly have less experience of dodging them than they should.

Valid point, however at level 34 (Titan Normal) players have been exposed to out of sync cast bars and non-orange groups targets, Ifrit says hello. If players are running story content unsynced, which is not available to roulettes, they are handy capping themselves. That is not a community problem, that is a them problem the community is not going to be able to fix.

To add onto that while yes people should avoid aoes its no big deal in dungeons if you do get hit by them you don't die and you hardly take any damage so people get used to the idea that its no big deal. then they step in an ex primal or savage and stand in an aoe and die instantly or wipe the raid.

Which would go back to my direct statement, I draw the line at waiting for people to learn that getting smacked with something isn't the best idea, that is something they should be fully capable of figuring out on their own time without assistance, if they cared at all.

Pause.

I really need to point out something here: Titan was a massive wall for the longest time for a good majority of the community (or at least it was for my server). It was the first thing that made you dodge that was actually punishing - you get it wrong, you fall off with no chance of coming back. It's also one of the first mechanics the game gives you that the animation/skill effect lasts longer than the cast. Not moving in time for the cast is what gets most people killed because they go off the skill animation, especially people that do not know focus target is a thing and may not be looking at the boss the whole time. They will undoubtedly keep failing the mechanic, confused why they failed it; clearly they moved out of the way on their screen before the animation finished. Until someone would point out to them it's based on cast, not animation. This is absolutely one of the most important things to learn in the game that you encounter pretty late; most encounters are avoiding a giant orange area that vanishes when the cast is done.

Just to this extent, I'd have to say the blame lays on both; the game failing to show that it's also casts and cast bars that are important, not just getting out of the effected areas. It would then also fall to blame the community, or rather those present at such failings, that would rather leave than to not even try to help the person to understand. Yeah, it gets annoying typing out things several times, but not doing anything to help progress others is a contribution toward keeping the skill level and experience level of the overall community low.

There's still a lot of other factors to why the overall skill and experience gaps are the way they are, but this is just one aspect of it that I really wanted to speak up on.

First of no this is not the first introduction to off timed animations even basing the assessment off the lvl 34 titan normal fight, eruptions are the first exposure to that in Ifrit, and no realistically I would not expect someone in the Titan normal fight to dodge everything perfectly. Ifrit even exposes you to the concept that enemies can not only hit you but alter your location. The only new elements Titan normal introduced were the landslide attack itself which is arguable since a) other enemies use line attacks (wolves) b) the kiddie bars are up on the first one so if you get hit by it you know its going to push you. c) you are going to dodge it and never find out nor need to know it pushes you. Again if players are unsyncing this fight its a them problem not a community problem.

Using the example that Titan(Hard) was a gate when it came out is a red herring argument. The fight was designed and tested in a no lag environment and once the devs realized this lack of foresight made adjustments over time to make it much more lenient in that regard, clear rates sky rocketed afterwards. Using the players don't know its the cast bars that matter argument does not hold up in lvl 50EX content in my opinion either, (feel free to disagree). Hard mode primals where again you can't run them unsynced via roulette, where your party fill is going to come from if you are lacking people, is the appropriate place to have this pointed out and absorbed.

If you are running them unsynced that means that a) if you had decent friends they shouldn't mind running something a few times (even unsynced and just standing there to draw the fight out) so you can see what is going on, b) you are over leveled and unsynced it and if you have that mentality why should I expect you to want to run anything else at the intended release difficulty c) let someone use you for your tomes bonus and inversely you used them for an easy clear which you didn't care to learn to do properly.

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And now back to the heart of the matter, community. Please feel free to instruct anyone and EVERYONE you see driving in a manner other than lawfully designated how they should correct their habits in a constructive and friendly tone. Even if you are likely to never be on the same road as them again, as opposed to just adjusting to said non-lawful conformity so as to met your end goal of getting yourself from A to B, regardless of whether you have been properly trained on motor vehicle operation yourself (as is the case of most people explaining EX fights in a random party getting it wrong in some manner or another).

PS: Yes the raging and gitguds need to stop. Just leave if you are going to get that upset and be a prick when someone under performs to your standards, (not aimed at anyone in particular).