Possibly underestimating Reprisal on Dark Knight?

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

From what I know, defensive cooldowns such as Shadow Wall and Shadowskin are not additive -- they are multiplicative. That is, using Shadow Wall (30%) and Shadowskin (20%) on a tank buster that deals 100 damage will not decrease the damage by 50%. It will actually mitigate 44% of the damage since

100 - (0.2*100) = 80 --- Shadowskin
80 - (0.3*80) = 56 --- Shadow Wall
100 - 56 = 44 --- Total mitigation

My question is this:
- Does Reprisal work the same way?

That is, if I use Reprisal and Shadowskin on the same 100-damage tank buster, then will I get

100 - (0.2*100) = 80 --- Shadowskin
80 - (0.1*80) = 72 --- Reprisal
100 - 72 = 28 --- Total mitigation

or will I get

100 - (0.2*100) = 80 --- Shadowskin
80 - (0.1*100) = 70 --- Reprisal
100 - 70 = 30 --- Total mitigation

So the difference here is pretty small -- just 2%, but if it is the second case, then Reprisal cannot be treated like any other run-of-the-mill defensive cooldown, as its value remains fixed; Reprisal will always mitigate 10% of the original hit no matter what combination of defensive CDs are used.

Bonus question: How about skills such as Rend Mind and Storm's Path? Do they work the same way as Reprisal?

If possible, include references/sources please!

[hakurou46]

From what I've understood of how damage packets work in the game, what will actually happen is as follows

100 * (1 - 0.1) = 90 (From reprisal). This is the outgoing damage packet from the enemy - it's calculated before any calculations done on your player. This is because Reprisal will mitigate damage for everyone in the case of an AoE blast.
90 * (1 - 0.2) = 72 (From Shadowskin). This is your mitigation skill reducing it. When the packet is calculated per-player, it only carries the already-mitigated damage.

To my knowledge this holds true for other similar skills as well.

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

So if Reprisal is stacked with Eye for an Eye on the boss for an AoE attack, for example, then the damage will be calculated as follows

100 * (1 - 0.2) = 80 Outgoing packet (0.1 from Reprisal + 0.1 from Eye4Eye)
80 * (1 - 0.2) = 64 From Shadowskin

Do you think this is correct? If so, then at the very least the silver lining is that Reprisal, E4E, Storm's Path are additive?

[hakurou46]

I'm fairly certain it's multiplicative on both ends.

[Asurei]

i dont believe Reprisal and CDs are multiplicative. Reprisal is a Debuff on the Monster and CDs are a Buff to you. Because every raid group ideally has a WAR which with path/eye on full time as an off-tank. I feel stacked Path/Reprisal Would be multiplicative. But I feel its (Path10%*Reprisal10%) + (CD 20%*30%).

[Sarcatica]

Reprisal, E4E and Path should act the same way on multiplication. The only doubt I have is Delirium, Halone and Virus interaction because of the main stats decrease and not direct dmg.

You are free to experiment the effect but I doubt SE would let you get so much overall mitigation. PLD's Sentinel+ShO+Rampart can reduce spike damage up to ~61% total, if reprisal/path/E4E are on their own world, PLD can mitigate up to 80% damage which is too ridiculous by itself and so far when I have raided, they don't seem to interact that way at all. This is not yet including Virus, Delirium, Halone, Sacred Soil etc.

Before I confuse someone, if let's say some skills are additive instead of multiplicative, it makes way more sense for multiplicatives to go first before doing the additives since additives are flat numbers added/subtracted. If additives act first, the difference won't be much. This however works on decrement, for increment it is almost always better to add in before multiplying.

[hakurou46]

Reprisal, E4E and Path should act the same way on multiplication. The only doubt I have is Delirium, Halone and Virus interaction because of the main stats decrease and not direct dmg.

I'm going to go out on a limb here to say that they are affected the same way. Going off my previous post, the original damage packet of 100 damage at, say, 100 relevant stat is just going to be generated with 90 relevant stat... And then any, say, Reprisal is going to cut 10% off that.

If there's any interest to be had there it's "Does Halone or Delirum effectively cut 10% of the damage" when they cut 10% of the relevant stat.

[Xenosan]

Enemies do not have the same progressive stats that players do, their output damage algorithms I suspect are much more simplified than player output calculations in XIV.

Last time I'm aware that numbers were gone over, primary stat reductions - like RoH - amounted to about 9/10ths of actual reduction, with stacking of one particular type or different types not making up much difference. Consider trick attack. Mobs in XIV don't have defense, so Trick Attack doesn't actually lower enemy defense by 10%, it just inflates player delivered damage by about 10. A Faux calculation. STR Down, Int Down, etc are also a faux calculation in their own way.

It's been very hard for the community to connect the dots on damage calculations, the conclusion from that for me is that the calculations are less progressive and instead mostly arbitrarily set during design - can't connect the dots because there are no dots to connect.

It's all multiplicative, RoH/Virus/Del ect don't really reduce NPC primary stats, because nPCs don't actually have primary stats to reduce. Only conclusion I've seen that's made sense over all this time,


edit: though now that dueling is a thing, testing RoH, Virus, etc on Wolves Den Pier would be an easy testing point for PVP.

[hakurou46]

Trick attack states "Increase damage taken by 10%" but i'm guessing you mean stuff like Storm's Path, which states that it reduces Slashing Resistance

[Mirch]

ooooh interesting thread



>following<