Healing Magic Potency for non-healers

[Cabalabob]

I don't think thats even a discussion, like, there's a reason for someone to be a healer and also a reason why healers have the lowest dps, so if u are going to give dps and tanks more/better heals raise the stone 3, broil and malefic 2 potency to 300 so healers can ALSO be a hybrid job and while dps can heal a healer can dps properly

Well i guess i got carried away since this won't happen anyway, as RDM proved, we won't see hybrid jobs so soon

This would be a fair comparison if healers didn't have cleric's stance. But they do. A BLM/SMN using physick right now is the equivalent of a WHM attempting to use their dps spells without cleric's, pointless, it's so negligible you might as well not do it. And PLD is even worse off since it doesn't even get magic damage on the weapon. There needs to be some kind of scaling to make these moves worth it. It's bad enough right now healing for 200~ of our 30k hp pool, what's it gonna be like at 99 when we have a 500k hp pool and we're still only healing for 400~ hp with cure?

Cure being decent for PLD/BLM/SMN is a far cry from suddenly they're hybrid jobs that will make healers redundant. Healers still get cure/benefic 2, adloquium, AoE heals, larger mp pools, more MND, healing based traits like free cure, oGCD mega heals like asylum, Tetragrammaton, benediction, lustrate etc. Making cure scale better isn't going to make PLD and BLM outheal you...

[Madrone]

The game is highly polarized in regards to stats and role functions. Yet some jobs have secondary utility that relies on stats that don't scale as they level or get better gear. PLDs are supposed to be tanks that have some healing magic. Casters are supposed to have a few generalist spells. They made it this way for a mix of reasons: solo stuff, convenience, utility, and job identity. The same reasoning applies for tanks and healers being capable of doing decent damage, or for many non-tanks having defensive skills or self-heals for non-healers. Its utility. The intent is not to unbalance the roles, but to put the secondary abilities that have failed to scale back in line. Or just remove them. The player base is polarized about this as well, which is the discussion.

@Cabalabob

Cleric's Stance is also scaling badly. It used to be a small difference between healing while it was up and not, or dps'ing without it up. It still works as intended, its just completely mandatory to use it properly, whereas it worked ok in the wrong stance in levels 2-49.... you know when most gear was generic DoM and had INT and MND.

Mage auto-attacks are the same way, using STR which they never get on gear. Stick and book slaps for 60-300 were not bad in the level 50 era. A BLM's best spell crit and did 3k back then. Now a similar potency spell can hit 20K, but auto-attacks don't do 450-1800. And in 4.0 and equivalent spell would probably crit for 125k. Mage auto-attacks won't be doing 3300-14k though. They'll still stick and book slap for 75-350. Mage auto-attacking isn't as important to fix though. It doesn't take up utility skill space. Mage outputs and raid dps don't depend on it. Some mechanics actively discourage it- bringing more targeted AoEs to the front line, requiring more people to dodge more frequently.

Just examples of the source of the problem. These are so much lower in priority, I don't think anyone really cares.

[Blazinhart]

With that logic, we all should have been failing our solo instances in the msq from the beginning. If dps classes needed healing abilities in order to make it through those solo instances, then how did anyone playing the game come out successful?

Great comment!

[Pireco]

damn text limit

If a "decent" healing wont be gamechanging, why u need it?
Btw cleric its not a great deal on overall dps, the best healer dps is roughly 40-50% of a dd dps, and 60-80% of a tank dps , and i acept it happily since i knew my dps is low compared to other roles, as i acepted that blm has no heals, as for healing your 30k hp you dont need to do it by yourself, thats why we have the...surprise... healers
This is a multiplayer game guys, u arnt suposed to do everything by yourselves( except warriors xD, jk)
And healing , when the meta is dps at all costs, is already making the WHM being a redundant job among healers, spread that to dps/tank u dont need em anymore
And imagine a BLM with infinite mp healing like 3k per cast and when he isnt healing it is dpsing crazy... give him an aoe heal and no need for healers anymore, but as i said before to someone , u have your vision as a tank and i have mine as a healer, we can just agree to disagree.

[Cabalabob]

If a "decent" healing wont be gamechanging, why u need it?
Btw cleric its not a great deal on overall dps, the best healer dps is roughly 40-50% of a dd dps, and 60-80% of a tank dps , and i acept it happily since i knew my dps is low compared to other roles, as i acepted that blm has no heals, as for healing your 30k hp you dont need to do it by yourself, thats why we have the...surprise... healers
This is a multiplayer game guys, u arnt suposed to do everything by yourselves( except warriors xD, jk)
And healing , when the meta is dps at all costs, is already making the WHM being a redundant job among healers, spread that to dps/tank u dont need em anymore
And imagine a BLM with infinite mp healing like 3k per cast and when he isnt healing it is dpsing crazy... give him an aoe heal and no need for healers anymore, but as i said before to someone , u have your vision as a tank and i have mine as a healer, we can just agree to disagree.

Show me where I said it won't change anything? Having self sustainability is a huge boon as can be seen by warriors massive self healing kit. Having healing can save a wipe when a healer dies or disconnects which makes a difference. What I said is it's not going to put healers out of the job if PLD and BLM/SMN have access to cure 1... can you honestly imagine saying "oh PLD has a decent cure 1 now! Screw bringing a WHM!"?

And I can say the same back to you if cleric's stance isn't such a big deal then why do you need it? The answer is because it is a big deal, it makes your dps tools worth using. Having "low dps" as a healer and having "no healing" as a dps are not the same thing.

If a BLM is healing they're not dpsing, unlike a healer they don't have regens or a fairy. So that 3k heal (which is probably more than is being asked for by scaling) is costing them a 10k fire 4. So yes I'd say it's a reasonable trade off. And giving them an AoE heal? Leap in logic much?

Your argument was that if healers can't dps why should dps/tanks be able to heal? But that's incorrect, because healers CAN dps thanks to cleric's stance. Yes it's lower than tanks and dps but they have it. Giving BLM/SMN and PLD a better scaling cure/physick makes them have healing, it'd be lower than healers but they'd have it.

Your argument would only work if healers didn't have cleric's stance because then their dps would be so bad it would be equal to the current state of dps heals.

[Pireco]

.....

I guess theres no point in discussing it, people only want their character to solo everything, so yeah, go for it, but im pretty sure wont happen
And yes no dps =/= than no healing, no dps in this game would be basically useless, no healing is just the way is meant to be in a MULTIPLAYER GAME, as for save from a wipe, if the party can kill a boss without a healer with someone not dpsing and healing less than 3k , u would have cleared it anyway, what i saw happen many times, so, pointless ( ego?)
Btw, giving blm an aoe heal was just saying that, do that and healers arent needed anymore, but if u like it better, 2 blm, i, as a healer , in ex dg heal very little, no wipes still, if in between the very rare healing i could use fire 4....man
Remeber dps here is the meta
Anyway, i wont change my mind , and the game is fine the way it is so, discussing theories is cool but no point in repeat myself over and over

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

people only want their character to solo everything, so yeah.

Any reasonable argument you could've made for not giving dps stronger heals went right out the door the instant you mentioned cleric stance. 'It encroaches on the healers job too much'? That's certainly worth a chuckle, considering the entire point of cleric is to encroach and take over the job that the dps and tanks themselves are supposed to be in charge of.

[Madrone]

Sometimes the boss goes away for a bit. Sometimes you got to duck and cover for a mechanic and may not be in range while doing it. Sometimes a healer (or both) is down or busy cuz the fan got hit with excrement. Or maybe you gotta wait a few because a healer left a dungeon. Those are some situations where a scaled up Cure/Physick would be >>>> better than what we have. And looking forward 6 months - 2 years from now, it'll probably drop to around .7% or so of a healer/caster's max hp healed per cast, down from about 2% that it is now. I feel bad for SMN. Its not even a cross class skill for them. Why does GLD/PLD even have it if they can't make it work? Its hasn't been good for them since below level 15.

@Pireco I've done some healing as a BLM, and I can tell you no matter how much MND I can get from accessories and Field Commander's glamor set to get even a 2.2k Physick, I'm barely going to handle healing a tank and dps through a 3 trash dungeon pack with that. Infinite mana doesn't matter if the heal is that weak, but it would enough to heal me up in an emergency or when there's a break in being able to attack, and it can buy a little time if the healers are down.... if that was the natural power of the spell while in regular INT gear. Nobody has suggested adding any aoe healing or increasing it well above its relative effectiveness in the level 50 era, btw. Situational utility is all it ever was.

Cross class and really all weak/underused skills are up for review, chopping, and/or re-org. And part of the issue is there isn't anything good to take instead for a Caster. Swiftcast and Raging are really the only good skills. Virus is good for SMN. E4E is pretty weak... small chance on being hit to inflict small damage penalty, really? So its good the whole system is going to be changed. Is it that awful to put Cure/Physick back up to say 9% of max hp for a healer/dps (~2k healed) when cross classed? Removing/Replacing with other skills is a better solution? More polarization, less utility?

I find it hard to believe anyone would advocate taking anything away. Nerfing/removing things makes players sad. I could expect it of people playing this as their first Final Fantasy game, whereas players of Final Fantasy games plural, I expect would want to see broken things like this fixed, and job identities and general utility kept intact. How is it anyone in the playerbase wants the game to be simpler and all jobs be even more pigeon-holed into their roles?

[Hitsuzen]

As somone who has used clemency to heal then entire party while carrying bad dps and a very bad latency healer.

We don't need cure.

[Saccharin]

So Cure and Physick may be changed when we roll into 4.0 with a new Role & Shared Role skill system. Right now Casters and PLD have access to these spells. And if you look at how they scaled in 2.x i70-130 gear at level 50 and now at level 60 in i180-270 gear, you'll immediately notice that our hp pools have grown tremendously, but that the power of these spells has barely increased at all in the hands of non-Healers.

...

The same kind of scaling issue exists for Cleric's Stance's widening gap when using it for the wrong spells. It use to be less of a difference when level and ilvl were lower. DoM auto-attacks also, because base STR hasn't increased relative to the damage we do with our main stat-based attacks. A stick slap for 70 damage was relatively more when your spells did a few hundred damage, vs when they do 4-7k damage but the stick slap is still exactly the same. I don't think these matter as much as a cross class healing spell, but they are an example of how specializing in one stat and VIT (on our gear) make anything that uses a different stat for its output get pitifully weak as level and ilvl increase.

As I understood it 4.0 is removing cross skills altogether. Instead of DRK and WAR using provoke from GLD they'll have their own taunt, for example.

I see this as the first step of removing the class system completely. If it wasn't for ACN I think they'd have done it for 4.0.

I think cure for paladins (and similar situations) is a remnant from the old 1.x systems. As you said, paladins only use base mind so it's not an effective heal once you start gearing. For HW SE could have boosted Cure but instead gave us a new heal.

Personally I like the cleric stance mechanic. Heals scaling purely off of mind means that for a healer to do some damage they have to forego some healing. It solves the levelling issue and means healers are too effective in group content. It also means that damage dealers can't be effective healers too.

All jobs should not have a heal. If a significant heal is needed then that content is either overturned or is meant to be in a group.