Linear dungeons arent the issue

[Enur]

During my leveling process i found that the earlier dungeons were better designed "dungeons" despite the equally linear progression inside. Some of my favourites are Halatali, Temple of Qarn and Totorak. Lets look at the map of totorak




Notice how very linear it is. It has a clear middle, beginning and end. Yet despite this it feels less linear when played. I believe this is due to the optional route and the extra optional rooms.
Inside those rooms there arent much of interest, but they are there. They fuel the fantasy that this is a real dungeon, and not just a gauntlet of trash, boss, trash, boss, trash and then a boss.

The narrow and creepy corridors of Totorak really sets the mood with the dank floors and slimy walls.

I am aware that totorak is a modified 1.0 dungeon mind you, but i must say that i hope for more of that kind of mapstyle in 4.0 and forward. Especially looking at the optional events. (like the side rooms in qarn, they are nice albeit useless. but again, helps fuel the fantasy that is it an ancient temple with many secrets)

Details like "Bergand the brokens cell" also helps it alot, adding a new lore aspect to the dungeon. Who was bergand? why was he broken? I love these details.

Looking at a 3.+ dungeon to comparison, lets take Dullbreaker HM



This is the worst offender of them all. Its repetitive, boring and has no discernable lore just by looking at the map. Unlike Totorak there is no deviation from the given road. This is what i hope never will see the world of eorzea again. Unlike the abovementioned 2.0 dungeons i had to take the screenshot of Dullbreaker myself, as its so boring that noone could be bothered to put one online.

That is all.
Cheers

[Zetsumei_Tsunarashi]

The totorak in 1.0 was even better. The final boss was different depending on what path you chose.

I also believe creativity in dungeon design has stagnated. Current design seems to focus more on creating an interesting aesthetic and ignores trying to innovate gameplay wise.

I wish they would focus a little more on gameplay innovations. Currently when you play a new dungeon, it just feels like every other dungeon with a fresh coat of paint on it.

[Canadane]

The totorak in 1.0 was even better. The final boss was different depending on what path you chose.

I really miss this.

[Dzian]

The totorak in 1.0 was even better. The final boss was different depending on what path you chose..

I was going to mention this. and it's something I miss. be nice if more bosses had multiple bosses depending on routes and paths etc.

trouble is. it would require dungeons to actually be relevant content. and not dead on arrival tome grinds that they currently are. because if they weren't relevant the only routes people would ever take are the quickest ones to getthe tomes. rather than optional ones for loot.

Toto-rak is one of the most hated dungeons in the game..

That's mostly just because of that annoyingly long leadeny bit that makes you move so slow. practicly triples the time the run takesjust walking through that stuff...

[Zojha]

practicly triples the time the run takesjust walking through that stuff...

And yet, Toto-rak doesn't last longer than other leveling dungeons. I've purposely been looking at the timers every time I run it via roulette. And even if I point it out, the main retort is:"It still 'feels' slow."

That said, I'm pretty sure people don't mind the optional rooms in Toto-Rak right now - nobody but newbies even looks their way. Same goes for Sastasha or Quarn.

Putting relevant loot behind optional rooms/paths is somewhat dangerous in a duty finder environment. There's nothing stopping a person from just leaving the duty once they got their loot and likewise, nothing stopping them from leaving if the group takes a path that doesn't lead to their desired loot. Then a new healer joins, sees you took the path that doesn't lead to the hot healer piece and leaves again. And the classic:"Either you go and kill that optional boss or you can kick me and wait for a new tank." Been through that in several games, I'm glad it's not a thing here.
You can catch a glimpse of that behaviour during the early days of new 24 man raids, where it's common that people leave after the boss that dropped the item they wanted. Tends to subside once nobody cares about the loot anymore however.

You need to put the main incentive on duty completion, else you're just asking for trouble.

[Canadane]

Putting relevant loot behind optional rooms/paths is somewhat dangerous in a duty finder environment. There's nothing stopping a person from just leaving the duty once they got their loot and likewise, nothing stopping them from leaving if the group takes a path that doesn't lead to their desired loot. Then a new healer joins, sees you took the path that doesn't lead to the hot healer piece and leaves again. And the classic:"Either you go and kill that optional boss or you can kick me and wait for a new tank." Been through that in several games, I'm glad it's not a thing here.

You may misunderstand. Back in 1.0 you took different routes to different bosses. They weren't optional bosses, each boss ended the dungeon.

[Enur]

You may misunderstand. Back in 1.0 you took different routes to different bosses. They weren't optional bosses, each boss ended the dungeon.

Did the different routes grant different loot? If thats the case then i wouldnt want that to happen ever. In the DF environment that would only cause grief.

"I wanna go route A cause i need pants!"
"No i wanna go route B cause its the fastest"
"What about route C guys? It gives us the shoes i've been looking for"

Most people are selfish when paired with strangers. Only f the Duty Finder was abolished or a new type of "Hardcore Dungeon" (by hardcore i dont necessarily mean harder just smarter) was introduced i dont see that happening, even if it does sound amazingly good and RPG'ish.

[Vulcwen]

People like linear dungeons, they just don't like that they FEEL linear. As soon as there are optional paths to take, people end up disagreeing about the route resulting in frustrations.. unless, an "optional" path is obviously better, or basically picked for you. Toto-rak is one of the most hated dungeons in the game.
I think that shortcuts are really important in dungeon design, it makes people feel smart, but people would naturally agree with the path once they know about it and are capable of taking it (aside from XP runs, but that's not an issue in end-game dungeons).

Basically, add things to jump off from/over to skip mobs, maybe a secret way to enter a different route (like having a bomb enemy use self-destruct near a bunch of rubble). Once a secret is discovered, it soon becomes meta and everyone will use it, but it still makes for more interesting gameplay.

[hakurou46]

Once a secret is discovered, it soon becomes meta and everyone will use it, but it still makes for more interesting gameplay.

You mean like the jump in Haukke Manor? Or sneaking past enemies in Qarn HM?
Because then you get the problem where newer players won't know it. I've seen people kicked for this.
Whenever you introduce, by design och not, any selection into a multiplayer game which affects more than the selector, you'll have people complaining. That's not an issue with the game, but:
I'm going to claim that optional side areas are a much, much better idea than shortcuts. They just create unneeded frustration for minuscule gain.
Mark Brown made a great video on how dungeons in Zelda: The Wind Waker feel nonlinear while remaining perfectly linear. Check if out if you're into game design. (Compare Fractal Continuum, or CT re: returning to earlier parts of the dungeon)

[Enur]

Totorak feels longer than the other dungeons because the actual trash between the bosses are the same four mobs repeated, with two of the bosses essentiall being copied of each other. The slime bit at the end does no favours either to the overall runtime.

This may sound weird but here it goes.
I want the illusion of choice

It is very true that if relevant gear and rewards are off the given track that that may cause trouble in the average DF groups. A full labyrinth is bad for random groups. What i want is a less linear look to the dungeons. That they all go from A to B to C is no biggie for me. Toto excels in giving this illusion by giving two paths. the amount of monsters on those paths are the same, but the fact that i get to choose whether to go right or left makes the difference. Or whether i take the detour by the start to the left or wait and take the other detour by the second boss to the left. The fact that i get a choice in what i do helps it seem less monotonous over time. Despite it essentially being a worthless choice.

Just a shame they put boring fights in the dungeon.