[dev1206] Class Reforms: why the 15/11 limit?

[Answa]

I see 3 obvious ones :

-Depending on your mp pool
-Depending on the enmity you want to generate
-Depending on the time you can allow yourself to be defenseless while casting

What.

For nukes none of this matters (tiers share a recast timer and lower-tiered nukes absolutely stink).

For cures, we get two Cure spells. Nuff said.

[Orophin]

Very good example.
P.S.
Are you Orophinn of Tribe LS, maybe?

Newp, I'm the Orophin with one n on Figaro in Phoenix Order LS. I played on Gilgamesh in FF11.

[grandm]

No, it's about not waisting mp by using an overpowered spell when it's not needed.


It's not about giving gla or mrd better abilities to generate enmity, it's about you not spamming blindly spells, destroying your keyboard/joystick in the process because you will never ever get the hate on you no matter what you do.

No, not on solo. Ifrit for example : depending on the situation you could be able to use a tier I spell before his next ws but not a tier II because it would take too much time and you might get the aoe.

on the one hand you complain tiers help control MP usage, but in the same post you pretty much say your going to spam spells now that hate is not an issue. contradiction? know how to look after you MP?

[Icecylee]

It's exactely what I wanted to say.
The things that made me afraid of the possible removal of elemental weaknesses are

1) Those spells aren't concentrated on a single job anymore. You can't make "elemental weaknesses" matter a lot in a scenario where only one of two jobs can use the element
that enemy is weak to. In such a scenario you're *FORCED*, from a gamedesign point of view, to either make so weaknesses are ther but hardly make a difference, or that simply they won't be there anymore.
2) The lack of a water spell, which destroys the "balance" of the elemental wheel.


Too early to say of course, but still I definitely am afraid.

I find it kind of strange that you're so worried about this, considering you mentioned the Persona series in an earlier post when talking about elemental weaknesses and what not. There (well, in 3&4 at least), a large number of the characters only had affinity with a single element, but exploiting elemental weaknesses is easily one of the most important aspects of combat.

Not dumping all the elements in a single place and making you work to exploit weakness that are available to you, rather than constantly having tools at your disposal to hit all of them at once makes an elemental system a lot more worthwhile, IMHO.

[Themis]

I see 3 obvious ones :

-Depending on your mp pool
-Depending on the enmity you want to generate
-Depending on the time you can allow yourself to be defenseless while casting

---

No, it's about not waisting mp by using an overpowered spell when it's not needed.

It's not about giving gla or mrd better abilities to generate enmity, it's about you not spamming blindly spells, destroying your keyboard/joystick in the process because you will never ever get the hate on you no matter what you do.

No, not on solo. Ifrit for example : depending on the situation you could be able to use a tier I spell before his next ws but not a tier II because it would take too much time and you might get the aoe.

I wonder if anyone has really read the reform list.

For CNJ I count:

3 Healing Spells

CNJ Mag. 1 Restores a portion of the target's HP.
CNJ Mag. 2 Restores a large portion of the target's HP.
CNJ Mag. 3 Restores HP of all party members within range of the target. Healing priority is given to those with lowest HP.

I want to call them Cure, Cura and Curaga respectively. It's probably safe to assume each one has a different MP cost with different enmity generation and spell cast times for use depending on the situation at hand.

2 Different Nuke elements

Earth

CNJ Mag. 10 Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.
CNJ Mag. 11 Target AoE Deals earth damage to all enemies within range of the target. Chance to inflict Heavy. Combo: CNJ Magic 10, Bonus: Increased damage towards target.

Let's call these: Stone and Stonega. I'd imagine, like the cures, these also have different MP costs, enmity generations and cast times. Not to mention you can combo these up to do additional damage for the same cost of CNJ Mag. 11. Whether there is increase enmity for that extra damage is unknown at this time. If not, then that's a bonus right there. Bonus, to me, doesn't imply negative effects. Whilst that's irrelevant for the current argument, I wanted to point that out.

Wind

CNJ Mag. 8 Deals wind damage to the target. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
CNJ Mag. 9 Target AoE Deals wind damage to all enemies within range of the target. Chance to dispel an effect.

Like before, we'll call these Aero and Aeroga. Something would be strange if these didn't follow the current trend of different MP, enmity and cast times. These combo up too for extra magic accuracy.

That's just for CNJ. Let's look at THM.

THM Mag. 3 Deals ice damage to target. Chance to inflict Heavy.
THM Mag. 4 Deals ice damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.

Blizzard and Blizzaga? These don't combo which suggests to me these are the strongest spells. That's speculation though. Still, they'll have different MPs, enmity and cast times attached to them. There's also an Ice spell for BLM that follows this combo-less ice style, but for now let's forget BLM.

Next spells:

THM Mag. 5 Target AoE Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.
THM Mag. 6 Target AoE Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.
THM Mag. 7 Target AoE Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.

Fire, Fira, Firaga. They all hit AoE but that doesn't mean they all share the same MP costs etc. You can combo these up in turn to create a huge fire-y death nuke, but it's not like we have to. Only need a bit of damage or want low MP, low enmity - then we can always use Fire (or THM Mag. 5). Want to dish out destruction - then all that care amount enmity is probably futile because I can imagine the THM being a little on the dead side after using all 3 in a row.

The same goes for thunder based magic. I'll leave that out, but I will say it's safe to assume these will also follow our trend:

"Tier" 1 is low cost, low enmity, low cast time. With each increase in "tier" we can assume an increase in cost, enmity and cast times. Even though the costs will scale with level I hardly think the lower "tiers" would ever cost the same/more than the higher ones.

So, the argument that the new system offers no/little control over MP usage, enmity or cast times is a little flawed. Each job has at least two versions of a particular magic that allows the player to decide those really important questions:

Do I have the MP to cast a big nuke?
Do I want to generate a lot of enmity?
Do I have the time to wait x secs to cast the spell?

When you hit a no, you have an alternative choice i.e. a lesser nuke/heal.

[AtryxEtair]

This thread should be re titled Text Labyrinth, so many walls. I read a lot and wasn't sure if this was mentioned. But we don't what classes will look like past 50 or how far they will go past 50. For all we know 50 could be the equivalent of level 25-30 in FFXI. Trying to insert some perspective in the discussion. Apologies if this has been considered.

[Nagamaki]

The point of the OP is not about the loss of tiers, because really each type or element still has at least 2 spells to it so it isn't like they are likely to all have the same potency/cast time/cost and in some cases like the cures, the differences are explicit in the descriptions.

He repeated that this wasn't the point a few times to try and get the conversation back on the right track but people keep posting counter arguments to the one person arguing that removing the tiers is a huge problem, which is really not the purpose of the thread.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Look at the song list: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bard

How many of them are actually used in gameplay, especially at endgame?

Why have all that filler in there taking space and being generally useless? If you can't answer that question, they need to be removed.

Save for the tiered songs each of the songs were widely used by good Bards in FFXI, maybe (assuming you played Bard) you just were not a good Bard and failed to see the use of those spells. I will agree that some might be more useful than others, however depending on the party setup a good Bard, again let me emphasize the -good- part here, would adapt and adjust the song buffs to best the party's strengths.

Also since they made the songs able to be cast on only one person that further diversified the use of different songs. The more you know.

[Camisado]

I think the OP's concern is that they are forcing themselves into a pattern for aquiring abilities and traits on a class, not necessarily the abundance or lack of abilities on the classes. My guess is someone just came up with this idea to give an ability every other level and it worked well enough for what they had in mind so they went with it. Not much reason to that but it is all I can think of. Maybe they liked that it would be "fair" to all of the classes, that they all get the same amount of abilities and thought they will be more equal and balanced.

Who knows if the pattern will stay post-50 or if abilities will be added/altered before then. If it works out poorly later it is likely going to change. You know their motto: "Content subject to change"

[Mishakai]

I suggest trying the new system before complaining about things that may or may not exist in the new system. Getting all upset over speculation does nobody any good.

It is impossible to provide constructive criticism to the developers about anything until you have experienced it first hand.