[dev1206] Class Reforms: why the 15/11 limit?

[Lucifer]

Some mod verified that the water spell will not inflict dps.

[Elexia]

I see 3 obvious ones :

-Depending on your mp pool
-Depending on the enmity you want to generate
-Depending on the time you can allow yourself to be defenseless while casting

Tiers does make sense, yes, but people cried pools of blood to make XIV a boring repeat MMO that you no doubt played in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, instead of trying to become a FF MMO.

[Firon]

Tiers does make sense, yes, but people cried pools of blood to make XIV a boring repeat MMO that you no doubt played in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, instead of trying to become a FF MMO.

ah yes the tier argument, I wonder how many times you unequipped banish II and used I so you would take less hate

[Monsalvato]

Indeed Jinko, lots of speculation.
But still, even in the best case scenario (whm super move being water-based) I wouldn't really call the elemental wheel "balanced" as it was pre 1.20, would you?

Healing spells being alligned to water might also be the case, but that would be very unlike FF, and since Yoshida worked so hard to bring the FF-esque feeling inside of FFXIV with patch 1.18 and 1.19 it would be a bit disappointing to see it go away with 1.20 after all the steps forward in that direction made with the previous patches, don't you think?
Also, if healing spells were water-based it still wouldn't solve the elemental wheel balancement issues, which gives even more rightful reasons to be afraid about the fact that they're going to get rid of the elemental weaknesses aspect.

This seems pretty unavoidable to me, but I tend to be a bit pessimistic to I guess there's still hope.
Still, supposing the "elemental weaknesses removal" will happen, what I'd like to know is:
Will this be temporary until 2.0 to make things easier to develop and handle until then? Or a permanent change to the game mechanics?

[Jinko]

No, it's about not waisting mp by using an overpowered spell when it's not needed.

Are you talking damage or healing here you need to be more specific.

As a Damage dealer there is no waste to mana if you are doing the damage, so I assume you mean healing, yes overhealing is an issue I guess, but then healer will have to learn when they should use their spells and which ones they should use at the correct times.

It's not about giving gla or mrd better abilities to generate enmity, it's about you not spamming blindly spells, destroying your keyboard/joystick in the process because you will never ever get the hate on you no matter what you do.

Why not ? what standard is there to suggest this shouldn't be the case, and lets not point to FF11.

No, not on solo. Ifrit for example : depending on the situation you could be able to use a tier I spell before his next ws but not a tier II because it would take too much time and you might get the aoe.

It seems sensible to me that as you increase in power your spells become more potent anyway, just because something is more powerful doesn't mean it should takes longer to perform.

As a MRD or LNC levels do they take longer to swing their weapon as their auto attack becomes more powerful ?

Skewer 1 and 2 use the same amount of TP and are executed at the same speed but do different damage.

[Monsalvato]

ah yes the tier argument, I wonder how many times you unequipped banish II and used I so you would take less hate

Very rarely of course, I guess.
But that's because the game was "forcing" you to make a choice and was limiting the amount of actions you could keep equipped at the same time to 30.
So in that scenario you weren't equipping lower tier spells not because you couldn't find an use for that, but rather because you had limited space and had to make choices.

In a scenario where you DO NOT have to choose your main class' abilities because you get them all regardless, this wouldn't be an issue, would it?


But even then, as I tried to explain several times with my previous post, I don't mind the "scaling system", there are pros and cons but I can be fine with that. I'm more worried about losing the "horizontal variety" the different elements provided.
That was guaranteeing a certain kind of depth that was very FF-esque and it would be a shame to see it go, even if replaced with other kind of depth-involving game aspects.
After all it's a FF mmo we're talking about here, not a generic good MMO. Sometimes some people lose track of this I'm afraid.
Yoshi-P worked very hard to bring back the FF feeling in this game which I am not scared to say was definitely lacking in several fields when the game was released in september 2010.

It would really be a shame to see a step backwards after so many successful forward ones.

[Jinko]

That was guaranteeing a certain kind of depth that was very FF-esque and it would be a shame to see it go, even if replaced with other kind of depth-involving game aspects.
After all it's a FF mmo we're talking about here, not a generic good MMO. Sometimes some people lose track of this I'm afraid.
Yoshi-P worked very hard to bring back the FF feeling in this game which I am not scared to say was definitely lacking in several fields when the game was released in september 2010.

It would really be a shame to see a step backwards after so many successful forward ones.

Yoshi-p seems to be drawing inspiration from FFIII, crystal tower, lack of a Water spell etc.

Why is this not considered FF to you ?

There was only 22 white magic spells in FFIII by the way, some of which were enfeebling which will no doubt find a new home on a new class.

P.s There are no tiers of spells in FFIII either.

[Monsalvato]

I was more talking about the possibilty of a missing "elemental weaknesses" aspect, rather than the water thing.
Different FFs showed a different number of elements.
Some games had 4 if I recall? The biggest number being 8.
In a game like FFXIV that has 6 elements (8 if you consider light and dark but I guess these will be going away with 1.20?) it seems a bit unbalanced, or uncoherent, to have such a two-split elemental wheel that doesn't include water.

Of course they could reform the elemental wheel into a single one, with 5 different elements.
For example:
Fire > Ice > Earth > Thunder > Wind > Fire

This doesn't make much sense, it's just an example.
They leave water out of the elemental wheel and make so healing spells are water based.
Uhm... it works I guess.

Altough, maybe it's just me, but personally I don't really like the idea of water-based healing spells and 5 elements wheel.
The 6elements one just sounded all much better to me.

[Elexia]

I'm sure people were against wind healing based spells too, but FF hosted Wind, Light and Water based healing. You could make the stretch the various drains and aspir type of spells were dark based healing. There will be water element attacks, but its mostly for enemies (Leviathan exists so yeah.)

[Monsalvato]

I don't think they can let the Elemental Weaknesses system active in a scenario where only monsters can use one of the 6 elements, which brings us back to the hypothesys of them removing the system completely.

It's not much about of other forms of healing existing with different element, they've been there for quite a lot of games.
It was more about the typical FF-esque spell called "Cure" being light-alligned.
But since the two spells Conjurer will get will probably be called in a different way, I guess you do have a point in the end.
I don't think leaving fixed tiers and typical FF-esque names for spells is the only way to mantain and nourish an FF-esque atmosphere in the game, I totally don't think that's *necessary*.
But still it was one of the many aspects contributing to that goal.
While I'm not claiming the game has got to suck if those are not there (that would be very short-sighted and childish), I can't say I'm happy either.

I'm 100% sure Yoshi-P's team can mantain the FF-esque through other means, but still, if they could have kept ALSO those aspects, it would have been even better for me

We'll all learn to live through and forget about it, but I still am not happy this is happening.