[dev1206] Class Reforms: why the 15/11 limit?

[lenethlockheed]

i am not for this mage reform. ive liked everything yoshi-p has done thus far but this reform for mage's is the last and final nail in the ffxiv coffin. i would bet money on the fact that they shut this game down for good 4 months after patch 1.20 goes live. and for those who would say im whine'n b4 i try it. you know how you look up movies on netflix and it gives you a brief summary of what the movie is about and based on that you watch the movie or you pass it up and watch something else. well ive read the class reform and it doesnt sound like something im into so i'll pass it up. sorry ive stuck with this game for as long as i could but killing the mage's was the last straw for me. im sry but id rather spend money ona game thats worth playing. when i heard they were gonna combo spells i got really happy i was thinking more along the lines of breath of fire type spell combo's like have blm cast fire then whm wind booom aoe spell combo flare or what ever. but this combo system is so half ass'ed its not even worth sticking around for. and to all who would say glad your leaving we dont need you in ffxiv you can only say that so many times b4 your last left so ha. and good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster. all this being said i really hope that s.e can make me eat my words with this reform but sadly i just dont see that happening.

[PrettyPrincess]

good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster.

except I'm going to and I'm going to enjoy every bit of it. please dont assume.

[Chardrizard]

i am not for this mage reform. ive liked everything yoshi-p has done thus far but this reform for mage's is the last and final nail in the ffxiv coffin. i would bet money on the fact that they shut this game down for good 4 months after patch 1.20 goes live. and for those who would say im whine'n b4 i try it. you know how you look up movies on netflix and it gives you a brief summary of what the movie is about and based on that you watch the movie or you pass it up and watch something else. well ive read the class reform and it doesnt sound like something im into so i'll pass it up. sorry ive stuck with this game for as long as i could but killing the mage's was the last straw for me. im sry but id rather spend money ona game thats worth playing. when i heard they were gonna combo spells i got really happy i was thinking more along the lines of breath of fire type spell combo's like have blm cast fire then whm wind booom aoe spell combo flare or what ever. but this combo system is so half ass'ed its not even worth sticking around for. and to all who would say glad your leaving we dont need you in ffxiv you can only say that so many times b4 your last left so ha. and good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster.

and the award goes to..... LOL

*this guy reminds me of Kilta Firelotus*

[Jinko]

i am not for this mage reform. ive liked everything yoshi-p has done thus far but this reform for mage's is the last and final nail in the ffxiv coffin. i would bet money on the fact that they shut this game down for good 4 months after patch 1.20 goes live. and for those who would say im whine'n b4 i try it. you know how you look up movies on netflix and it gives you a brief summary of what the movie is about and based on that you watch the movie or you pass it up and watch something else. well ive read the class reform and it doesnt sound like something im into so i'll pass it up. sorry ive stuck with this game for as long as i could but killing the mage's was the last straw for me. im sry but id rather spend money ona game thats worth playing. when i heard they were gonna combo spells i got really happy i was thinking more along the lines of breath of fire type spell combo's like have blm cast fire then whm wind booom aoe spell combo flare or what ever. but this combo system is so half ass'ed its not even worth sticking around for. and to all who would say glad your leaving we dont need you in ffxiv you can only say that so many times b4 your last left so ha. and good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster. all this being said i really hope that s.e can make me eat my words with this reform but sadly i just dont see that happening.

I'll answer your first and last comment (use paragraphs next time please)

Proclaiming the servers are guna shut down because you are displeased with something is very far fetched.

I am a mage and looking very forward to these changes, I am currently leveling THM because I can't wait to try out the class a proper DD caster.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but that doesn't really make sense.
It's a game with 6 elements (technically with 8...), adjusting the wheel to make it so it works with just 5 doesn't make sense.
And removing one element from the game completely doesn't make sense either.
It would be easier to just ADD a water spell to the game.

Which *hint hint* they couldn't do so far. And why couldn't they?
Simple: because they had already reached the limit of 15 actions for both THM and CNJ.
Now if things were like I said, it wouldn't have mattered.
But since they have to STRICTLY FOLLOW the 15 limits, this is what you get.

It's exactely what I was trying to say in the first posts, pretty good example.

There is a lot of speculation suggesting the water spell is healing.

That WHM AoE super move could be water based for all we know. (I'm not sure if it said what element it was)

[Lucifer]

Some mod verified that the water spell will not inflict dps.

[Monsalvato]

Indeed Jinko, lots of speculation.
But still, even in the best case scenario (whm super move being water-based) I wouldn't really call the elemental wheel "balanced" as it was pre 1.20, would you?

Healing spells being alligned to water might also be the case, but that would be very unlike FF, and since Yoshida worked so hard to bring the FF-esque feeling inside of FFXIV with patch 1.18 and 1.19 it would be a bit disappointing to see it go away with 1.20 after all the steps forward in that direction made with the previous patches, don't you think?
Also, if healing spells were water-based it still wouldn't solve the elemental wheel balancement issues, which gives even more rightful reasons to be afraid about the fact that they're going to get rid of the elemental weaknesses aspect.

This seems pretty unavoidable to me, but I tend to be a bit pessimistic to I guess there's still hope.
Still, supposing the "elemental weaknesses removal" will happen, what I'd like to know is:
Will this be temporary until 2.0 to make things easier to develop and handle until then? Or a permanent change to the game mechanics?

[Monsalvato]

I was more talking about the possibilty of a missing "elemental weaknesses" aspect, rather than the water thing.
Different FFs showed a different number of elements.
Some games had 4 if I recall? The biggest number being 8.
In a game like FFXIV that has 6 elements (8 if you consider light and dark but I guess these will be going away with 1.20?) it seems a bit unbalanced, or uncoherent, to have such a two-split elemental wheel that doesn't include water.

Of course they could reform the elemental wheel into a single one, with 5 different elements.
For example:
Fire > Ice > Earth > Thunder > Wind > Fire

This doesn't make much sense, it's just an example.
They leave water out of the elemental wheel and make so healing spells are water based.
Uhm... it works I guess.

Altough, maybe it's just me, but personally I don't really like the idea of water-based healing spells and 5 elements wheel.
The 6elements one just sounded all much better to me.

[Elexia]

I'm sure people were against wind healing based spells too, but FF hosted Wind, Light and Water based healing. You could make the stretch the various drains and aspir type of spells were dark based healing. There will be water element attacks, but its mostly for enemies (Leviathan exists so yeah.)

[Monsalvato]

I don't think they can let the Elemental Weaknesses system active in a scenario where only monsters can use one of the 6 elements, which brings us back to the hypothesys of them removing the system completely.

It's not much about of other forms of healing existing with different element, they've been there for quite a lot of games.
It was more about the typical FF-esque spell called "Cure" being light-alligned.
But since the two spells Conjurer will get will probably be called in a different way, I guess you do have a point in the end.
I don't think leaving fixed tiers and typical FF-esque names for spells is the only way to mantain and nourish an FF-esque atmosphere in the game, I totally don't think that's *necessary*.
But still it was one of the many aspects contributing to that goal.
While I'm not claiming the game has got to suck if those are not there (that would be very short-sighted and childish), I can't say I'm happy either.

I'm 100% sure Yoshi-P's team can mantain the FF-esque through other means, but still, if they could have kept ALSO those aspects, it would have been even better for me

We'll all learn to live through and forget about it, but I still am not happy this is happening.

[Nagamaki]

I'll provide an example where the horizontal variety can make a real impact which is often discounted.

Replacing targeted -na spells will a universal has a significant negative effect on what the player can prioritize, in certain situations. Any time you only have 1 debuff on you the effect is more or less the same, although MP cost, casting time and recast time can't be set individually, but I wouldn't say that this is a huge loss as long as the catch-all spell has values towards the low end.

However if some attack (Bad Breath type attacks) or combination of attacks (a chain of WSs by a mob, or actions by different mobs in a group) happen to inflict a bunch of debuffs at the same time, being unable to target what you want to remove means being at the mercy of whatever mechanic is used to select what is removed.

The devs could design a priority order (silence is removed first, then para, then slow, then dots in a certain order) but that order wouldn't necessarily be optimal in every situation. Removing silence first makes a lot of sense for casters in most cases but is obviously useless for melees, except everyone can cast some spells (maybe not MNK DRG WAR depending what is excluded then, but all classes). Then in some fights a dot might do insane damage and be absolute priority while in another it does very little, etc.

Alternately they could use FIFO or LIFO (First In First Out, Last In First Out), ie remove the oldest or newest debuff respectively. Could also be based on remaining duration. Works, but a lot of the time the order in which you remove them won't be the order you might have wished for.

In XI you basically had a combination of the 2 types for white magic debuff removal (a range of -na for common debuffs and Erase as a catch-all for the rest, with Esuna being added later as an AoE version that could remove multiple debuffs and remove almost any type when certain conditions were met) but then dancer only had a catch-all with a ridiculously long recast and holy crap did it suck, especially when dealing with paralysis on you.

I suppose if the catch-all is nearly free, instacast with no recast none of those things matter, and almost any implementation would be better than Healing Waltz so we aren't doomed to something that bad, but combining the actions can make a real difference in this case, and there are situations where other common combinations being separatable can come into play such as with buffs and monsters with buff steal abilities, monsters that change element during battle, etc.

I'm eager to see how the class reform will play out in game but I think having concerns about some real losses in flexibility and the fate of the elemental wheel system is very legitimate given what we currently know.