Heaven's Ward Knights

[Alynn]

Was anyone else really sad to see Ser Adelphel, Janlenloux, Haumeric, Hermenost, and basically the "good" guys of the Heaven's Ward just dissipate after we kill Thordan? I mean Adelphel was my personal favorite because of his bachelor ways in his back story. Janlenloux was his best friend and he worked super hard. Haumeric and Hermenost, both really righteous. Some could argue that Zephirin was "good" too since he was just, loyal to his king, but Haurchefant.

Were the knights aware of what would happen once we struck down Thordan? I've always been told there's two sides to a story, and from Thordan's side, what they were doing seemed righteous. Charibert/his lapdog got what they deserved but Adelphel and Haumeric .

What are your thoughts?

[Enur]

I was under the impression that we slaughtered them all. Even if they did what they thought was thing to do, just remember, they were the enemies. And now, as proven by the Hildibrand questline of all places they are gone. Dead.

They might appear good in their backstories but they did evil things. They supported a maniac set on world domination. They deserved no less than the sweet embrace of death.

No man thinks they does evil. Everyone is good by their own perspective. The Heavens Ward is no exception.

[Alynn]

snip.

Hi Proud!! I somewhat agree with you, but what if they didn't know the full extent of what Thordan was doing? Maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I honestly felt like Hermenost was cheated. He was a deeply religious man, and I don't think anyone can argue that what Thordan was doing was against the teachings of Halone.

[Shurrikhan]

They supported a maniac set on world domination. They deserved no less than the sweet embrace of death.

No man thinks they does evil. Everyone is good by their own perspective. The Heavens Ward is no exception.

In all fairness, world domination was rarely seen as a crime in itself (only whatever crimes are done to bring about that end), save in certain republics that would demand the exile or death of certain individuals for so much as gaining worrisome popularity. If no man believes they are doing wrong, I don't see how our duty to put them down would be any different than theirs to claim the world under a more powerful collective who would in turn have more power by which to improve it. (We've since come to know that's rarely the case and far too many ways that path can go awry, but in these times the idea that the powerful collective is the most able to bring about positive change was common thought.) Slaughtered – sure. Deserved it – maybe. But if so, do we now as well – maybe that too.

@Cilia
Further, "tempering" has been known to vary from anywhere anxious and fearful control (e.g. that of a severe addict, or one brain-washed) to a sense of absolute purpose and commitment (what we'd almost find positive in another regard). If one were to say we did them a mercy blow, it would seem a bit of an over-simplification. That said, in this case, I believe they were wholly loyal to their collective unit of power well before "tempering" even occurred.

One sided (in terms of story telling) Manichaean battles between good and evil are boring in a fantasy game. Over-done and trite.

This one at least slipped in a bit of that Merchant of Venice undertone of "wait... was that really okay?" (though of course to a far lesser extent). In the end, we wanted to take out Thordan, the Knights stood with him, and I honestly blame the High Commander in part, thematics equally, and traditional MMO design above all, for why there could be nothing in between. We fought, they died. Done. There was a bad guy presence to a few of them, but for the rest we just saw a vested brotherhood that we otherwise knew nothing about, exact that they make good light shows. Just felt more like casualties than any Manichean victory/defeat.

[Cilia]

"[T]empering" has been known to vary from anywhere anxious and fearful control (e.g. that of a severe addict, or one brain-washed) to a sense of absolute purpose and commitment (what we'd almost find positive in another regard). If one were to say we did them a mercy blow, it would seem a bit of an over-simplification. That said, in this case, I believe they were wholly loyal to their collective unit of power well before "tempering" even occurred.

For my part, I'd like to believe it's dependent on the individual. Some may have been entirely complicit with Thordan's ambitions, but given the displeasure literally everyone shows at learning Thordan's ambitions, I don't think even the highest knights would agree with his plan. Nobody except for the Heavens' Ward and the Archbishop were privy to the truth behind the War, meaning they had to have been told upon being given their station - whether they agreed or disagreed with Thordan's ambition beforehand makes no difference in light of the fact they were all "blessed" and made subservient to him, likely at the same time they were given said station. (Grinnaux in particular is known to have been belligerent, but outside of falsely accusing Alphinaud and Tataru of heresy we don't see anything suggesting that. Maybe it's because we spent very little time in Ishgard prior to the Vault, but... ehh.)

Either way, the only instance we have of tempered followers not being slavishly obedient to their master is the pirates in Sastasha HM. Even they are still subservient, albeit out of fear rather than reverence as per usual.

[Cilia]

Well, considering it's heavily implied that the Heavens' Ward were all "blessed" (tempered) by Thordan, it does make most of them pretty tragic figures. While it's hard to empathize with the knights due to the fact all we have for their backstories are blurbs in the Lore Book, and some (Charibert and Grinnaux) were bad eggs to begin with, one can't help but feel bad for essentially killing them. Most if not all of the others were probably patriotic, noble knights... and then they were made into Thordan's mind-slaves because of their martial skill.

While killing is extreme and should always be a last resort, in light of the fact they were all tempered it could easily be seen as a form of mercy. Sometimes being a hero means doing things nobody wants to do...

[Belhi]

Yeah, Thordan picked them on their skills rather than their personalities because he knew they would fall in line and be loyal once they had been 'blessed'. That is always the tragedy of the tempered. Even a good man is lost if they become enthralled by a primal. As of yet we have no way to 'cure' tempering. Death is the only option we have.

[Theodric]

I feel like instead of working alongside Artoriel and his brother in the early days of arriving in Ishgard we should have bonded with one or two of the more reasonable members of the Heaven's Ward. Instead we only really see Charibert and Zephirin - and what we see of them isn't exactly flattering and gives the false impression that they're all rotten apples.

I do like that they had distinct personalities and didn't necessarily like each other - I want to see more of that moving forward, especially in regards to Garlemald. We just need to see it in-game rather than hidden away in sources most players will not easily see.

[Enur]

Indeed, The devs should have made it so that the "blessing" of the Heavensward should have been postponed to the Vault, where we in a shocking turn of events would have learned of it. We should have entered with Adelphel (or really any of the less evil members), whom we in the early lvls, 51-54 would became "friends" with. Only for him to stop at the first round, flat opening and talk briefly about his newly recieved blessing from the archbishop. And the proceed to attempt to kill us.

But sadly all what could have been was relegated to "WE B BADD GUYSS, WE DO BAD STUFSS. FITE US."

Ah if only... Perhaps i'd actually sympathise with the members if we had had but one friend among them to show that they arent all baddies at heart.

[Atoli]

What's the point in sympathizing with them, though?
Haurchefant was enough tragic death for an entire expansion, I just don't see the need for even more "characters we like" dying. It makes sense for them to "just" be bad guys to most players, that they don't have to feel guilty or sad about killing.