Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Hyrist]

kinda a shame to solely call out duelle and not the other person too.

There's a singular reason for my motivation on that.

Duelle and I have history. For years, he and I form different parts of the community, fought in the FFXI community to better Red Mage and have it added to the front lines of FFXI's scope of game. I understand, fully, where he individually is coming from as I have been there. I also agree with a lot of his sentimentality, but not the conclusion he draws from it. This is why I call out to him specifically as a peer.

I also do not wholly agree or disagree with Gemina's sentimentality. Historically she is correct, albeit she's depicting it a bit more black and white. It's arguable where the 'strongest of their abilities' is. A lot of Red Mage's magic assists physical (though not as a direct cast attack like sorcerer) Temper is a good example of this (though it was bugged in NES version.) as is Haste. And a Red Mage's weapon selection, in it's incarnations were just as powerful as their magical components, making their normal attacks on par with their magical influence, especially when you factor in that their magic assisted their melee.

This is why you can't take a hard line on the Job one way or another, in my humble opinion. And it's this approach that SE seems to reflect. I have a feeling I'm going to be quite pleased - at least that's my tentative impression. It's flatly not how I initially envisioned it, but that's ok. I always leave room in my expectations to be surprised.

[Duelle]

This is why you can't take a hard line on the Job one way or another, in my humble opinion. And it's this approach that SE seems to reflect.

It's peculiar that SE would decide to do that with RDM when a ton of concessions have already been made for other jobs. BRD was turned from a song-spamming non-fighter into an archer with songs. WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals". DRK was turned from "knight that hurts themselves to deal high damage" to tank. And unlike some people here, I'm okay with concessions as long as there's a general precedent or it "just works".

[Hyrist]

I speak for myself, and always aim to. Others who want certain things out of RDM are free and should disagree with me if they feel the need to.

I do, respectfully of course. Because I think this differs from the initial visions you and I talked about years ago when Red Mage was still something we thought might come with a Realm Reborn. We both agreed that Front line should be an integral part of the class.

Again, we have to keep in mind that nearly every iteration of RDM was in games built around turn-based combat. That's an entirely different animal from MMORPG/live-action combat in terms of design and application. Yes, in turn-based RPGs 9 times out of 10 the best way to use a RDM's turn was to have them cast magic.

This is both true, and not. We have to consider the archetypal deviants that existed in non-job orientated titles. Celes, Terra, towards the beginning of their games and virtually every open ability meld system works closely with the archetype. In reality, the ATB system isn't much different than the MMO's internal timer system always set to 'active' rather than 'wait', and often it is wise to think that way when you think of things like rotations and timers.

I'll disagree. The demo emphasizes range while seemingly treating melee as a thing you do because mechanics rather than uniting both to flow into each other. If we had seen something like, say, melee combo going into insta-cast nuke followed by a hard cast spell followed by repelling shot followed by another spell or Lunge, that paints an entirely different picture (since it'd show that you'll be hitting things with a sword, it somehow allowing you to instacast spells while also having mobility built into the job).

I think the demo emphasizes nothing of the sort. Honestly. Whether you cast at a range or up close is irrelevant in this case. The range mainly was shown to give a good showcase and give light to the two positional skills they were highlighting. It shows that these spells CAN be cast at a range, people are simply inferring that they have to.

Based on the demo, I suspect what's going to happen is some aspect of the gameplay will require you to temporarily get in melee range to either empower future spells or make them cast instantly, then getting out of range to do so.
I like to think I'm allowed to develop an opinion based on what info we have available. I can still change my mind if something else surfaces or if I were to see the ability list along with what mechanics are part of the job. I did say that so far I was not impressed, and I'm sticking to that.

It seems to me that you're taking a bit of flavor footage in isolation to other information we were provided. "Rapid Positioning" was the term used. Which seems to indicate we will be both front and back lining rather frequently. Ranged DPS is the general label I see they have to apply when considering where on the Queue they place Red Mage. This essentially means we're sharing space with Black Mage, Mechanist, and Bard in optimal Queue conditions.

Simply put, the ranged/melee hybrid thing is needlessly convoluted. It's like they were reaching for something to make up, because a guy in melee range blasting fire into enemies' faces at point blank range in between sword swings was apparently not original enough for them.

This is where we can disagree again. The ability to cast at range was part of what makes Red Mage a versatile machine. Unless they implement a forced penalty for casting at point blank, I don't think your vision is going to be a problem, thematically. What I do suspect is that, depending on the impact of Auto Attacks and frequency of gap closer usage/enemy AoEs, is that positioning within the fight during casting will be a subject debated as situational between each fight.

However, for me, that would be a boon for the Job, not a deterrent. I am with you on wanting to see the full ability list, to see just how many melee-range skills we get in comparisons to range and how they compare. But what we got was a small showcase, likely not a full rotation.

As I've said, we'll see how this turns out, but I'd be lying if I claimed excitement about what has been shown so far. I still really want to see that ability list.
To be fair, this discussion wouldn't be happening if we had specializations per job (instead we'd all be arguing to ensure both caster RDM and melee RDM are balanced with each other). Since we don't, we're obviously going to lean towards our preferences.

I don't agree with the aspect of specializations within a Final Fantasy context. It served little purpose in Final Fantasy XI for what little you could do there. Having a clear and defined role and method does save a lot of convolution I'd prefer to be avoided. Here, even within the argument of Red Mage, which we both know used to be an eternal argument within FFXI - we're limited to the equivalent of "I don't like Bowmage" type arguments here. And that, honestly, I feel is welcome.

I recognize that no matter what happens, Red Mage is going to be divisive - that's sort of become second nature to the class since XI. However, here, the argument is likely to peter out regardless of our opinions.

For me, it will boil down to how frequently we switch into front and back. Whether or not one supports the other more is irrelevant to me so long as I get enough time in the front to make it feel like a true hybrid.

It's peculiar that SE would decide to do that with RDM when a ton of concessions have already been made for other jobs. BRD was turned from a song-spamming non-fighter into an archer with songs. WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals". DRK was turned from "knight that hurts themselves to deal high damage" to tank. And unlike some people here, I'm okay with concessions as long as there's a general precedent or it "just works".

You see, I don't view it mainly as a concession so much as an agreement of vision thus far. I make no mistake that this is 'their' vision of Red mage fitting their idea of how it should work.

Anyways, sorry for the huge post, wanting to give a full respectful reply. I do hope you are ultimately satisfied with the end-result Duelle. You and I have been waiting for this for a very, very long time. I'd hate for you to ultimately be disappointed.

[GMERC]

WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals".

How new are you? White Magic has included Aero and Tornado as early as Final Fantasy III.

[Darkstride]

BRD was turned from a song-spamming non-fighter into an archer with songs. WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals". DRK was turned from "knight that hurts themselves to deal high damage" to tank.

A lot of that is a result of the original class system from 1.0 being adjusted to adapt to the introduction of jobs. Conjurer was originally an elemental caster while Thaumaturge focused primarily on light and dark with debuffs and healing.

When jobs were added, they had to associate them with a base class, but some of them didn't quite align well and got revamped. Bard got attached to Archer as there was no song-oriented class. Conjurer and Thaumaturge got their elements shuffled (and sort of got their roles reversed) to accommodate White Mage and Black Mage.

[Radacci]

we've seen 6 skills - one spell combo, 1 melee skill, and ppl think that's all there is to it?
it's like showing drg heavy thrust + 4 tier combo + geirskogul, and omg drg is so bland, is that all there is to it?

snip

the reason it's usually not in melee range, is cause auto attack is physical, and RDM is caster, so it will do shitty AA damage like all other casters/healers (sword skills will be magical too)
this was a short demonstration of 7 skills (compared to the 30 something we'll have at lv70)
it may very well have a melee range combo, and you can use whatever combo you want, depending on range.
just because they use skills in this order, doesn't mean it's an actual combo, or that "evasive jump" is part of any combo, or that you only use 1 melee skill before jumping out.
you're just assuming shit, when you know shit.

Factually incorrect. A red Mage is a swordsman that seamlessly blends steel and spells, has access to two functionally opposing varieties of magic, and has unmatched versatility. Even the most basic definition does not leave them as a caster first and foremost, but a blend of the two disciplines, which is a concept that's betrayed by what evidence we have available to peruse. There is a reason RDM is considered a Jack of all trades, and it most definitely has nothing to do with 'Caster first, Swordsman second'.

this is FF FOURTEEN which is a fact that many seem to forget. we only have SINGLE ROLE JOBS, so RDM CANT work in the traditional sense; since it's red MAGE, it makes more sense to have it as a caster role in FF FOURTEEN.
It's a caster, that has some sword skills, again, you only seen 7 out of 30ish skills, so why are you talking about "evidence"? there's no evidence; it might just be 7 random skills in random order, leaving out a whole or multiple combos.

I'm sure they will have magic potency reduced when in melee range, RDM will be constantly moving in and out using charge and back flip ogcd skills, to build stacks, that's how I see it.

that would be really dumb, because there's many instances where you need to stack behind/front of boss.
that's like nerfing mch melee damage, because they have repelling shot....just absurd.

[Renik]

that would be really dumb, because there's many instances where you need to stack behind/front of boss.
that's like nerfing mch melee damage, because they have repelling shot....just absurd.

Mages have to stop casting to move, melees have to move away to evade certain attacks, mnk loses stacks, some melees have to ignore positionals on certain bosses, these things are happening already, DPS gets affected by mechanics occasionally, but it's not the norm, these things are being considered into a fight's balance. It may be a potency reduction or min distance to cast certain spells, but there will be a reason that will make you go back to range after meleeing, and getting a potency reduction is the more forgivable one as I see it, it will allow you to dps even if ti's with reduced damage.

[Kurogaea]

Which RDM? From which game?

This is the core issue for many. They played a Red Mage in one game and have that experience as their idea of what it is, but this series is HUGE, and every class has lots of incarnations.

How was Final Fantasy 13's Red Mage?

Edit: Nvm that game didn't have redmage. FF explorers had them tho. They seem mostly range but the concept of redmage itself should be more we rounded in all aspects besides.

[Gumbercules]

I feel ill be based around its positional moves to be honest, like cast at range lunge in melee to set up chain/rest mp repel out cast chain(s) What I don't really know is how the incentive for this cycle ill work. You start out casting just cuz spells at "face value" are more potency, then jump in to melee to debuff for chain spell(s) the cast your "bursts phase" chain spell rotation, which maybe debuffs to prepare mobs to take better elemental damage? The pacing gets my attention cuz it reminds me a bit of why i liked rdm solo in ff 11, the "cycle" of debuff > cast >rest etc. To be honest im pretty excited atm, i honestly was afraid ff 14s version of rdm was gonna be gld with en- spells XD (don't kill me im assuming the melee phase might have en- spell elements!, just meant im glad its a raw actual caster and not some put fire in sword hit! put air in sword hit thing)

if you played legion, what im imagining is like Demon hunter without the derping all over the palce part, kinda like if you lept out and used like 3-4 glaive tosses lol, then ran in build up 4 glaive tosses then ran out, but rdm would have a third phase to this. Kinda why im expecting the whole "rotation" to maybe be about 45sec-1min long with the chainspell(s) being the big finale.

[Valenth]

From what little was revealed in that short clip, I'd say there's going to be some sort of combo system to it (this is guess work). But from the video and what was said, I think they'll use melee to build up their spell chains, jump out to become ranged and then unleash their main-stay damage, then when needed jump back in and repeat.

As said at the presentation it's the other way around. Chain spells building a melee attack or two, then flip back for finish spell, hence their "ranged dps" identifier. Their focus is staying out of melee range and I expect them to spend 75'ish % of their time there.