Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Sounds cool, seems like an MMO party in a turn based game.

Haha, something like that I guess? I was experimenting with alot of different builds with my "dps", though I could never find something I liked with my ninja. I think I wound up going Nin/Pirate and BLM/SMN. But yeah, I really enjoyed going through the game with an RDM tank. ;u;

[Duelle]

No, there were not at least 9 different moves. At most 5.

0:31-0:36 - Three spells. Already worrying that the first thing the job does is start casting spells from range.
0:37-0:42 - Gap closer, followed by multi-hit WS, followed by Repelling Shot.
0:43 - not-Flare.

I counted 7 skills. So 1/4 of available skills assuming the lv60 cap. That's still quite a bit, even if we assume that skills automatically switch RDM from ranged to melee.

The video was literally 0:49 seconds long, more than half of which was battle stance and victory pose. So, effectively, you are basing your entire disappointment of the whole expansion on maybe 20 seconds of game play. Sorry, but that's an extremely over-dramatic and negative way of thinking.

It's not unfounded disappointment. RDM is a melee mage. They not only classified it as ranged caster, but started the demo at range instead of melee range (which to me is a red flag). That they classified it a caster tells me we'll get some AoE attack that we'll almost never get to use as our LB, which is a pity because I wanted to see us get something like Chant du Cygne as our melee LB.

Considering that almost every job preview has given us an idea of what the involved jobs do in combat, that short vid so far is saying RDM will be staying out of melee range for most of combat, dashing in at set intervals before going back to ranged. Which means they ignored all the "RDM belong on the front line" threads, not to mention the suggestions provided on these forums. The only upside is that it wasn't shown acting like a buffbot.

I'm reserving judgement until I see the full ability list and all the involved mechanics, but so far I'm not impressed.

[Gemina]

The class's innate trait was Revenge, which when they got hit, could proc and give them a free BP. In addition, they could also learn the 'Turn Tables' and 'Eye for an Eye traits, which gave a free bp on dodge and and increased crit rate to the max when the RDM hit low health. I equipped mine with a Red Muleta to boost the rate she got attacked, equipped the counter centric SAM skill set, a sword for more frequent limit breaks, and Buff Up for constantly raising stats, as well as E4E and The cover trait where she'd take the hit for a weakened ally. It worked fairly well, especially when Revenge procced multiple times. Not a gamebreaker, but a style I certainly adored most. Admittedly, I looked at the fact it had Revenge, and started to work on a build based around getting the RDM hit as much as possible, so I suppose I did the best I could to make it a true tank? XD My party was RDM, Spiritmaster, NIN, and BLM.

So in short, you don't like what you've seen from this short RDM clip because it makes no indication of tanking? You are talking about an attention grabbing RDM in a console version of the game, and this is an mmo where DPS and healers need to focus on NOT grabbing the attention of mobs. It is also really too bad that you didn't play RDM in XI, because you would have a massive amount of appreciation for the thought that has gone into this job for XIV if you did. I think SE knows they really effed up that job in XI, and have put a lot of thought into correcting that mistake.

You are too blind to see that in this very short video we see style that is unique to this game. No class/job weaves in and out of ranged/melee DPS. RDM not only does this, it also weaves in and out of casting magic and doing melee damage. From the video, we are guaranteed that the job not only does ranged DPS, but also gets up close and personal with the target to do melee damage.

Here is what I see in the video as the RDM commences battle:

Magic attack 1 [magic damage]
Magic attack 2 [magic damage]
Instant cast MA [magic damage] - very similar looking to BLM's Scathe
Tether to mob [melee damage] as indicated by Fencer's thrust animation
2x sword attacks [melee damage]
Flips back [melee damage] as indicated by cross slash animation during backflip that they slow down to make sure you don't miss it (how could you not drool at this)
Finisher [huge magic damage] animation very reminiscent to flarestar from FF IX.

Count them up, and even view the video to verify. 8 gcds are used, and are evenly spread 4x magic damage, 4x melee damage, and this RDM does it in STYLE.

You might have discounted that when the RDM weaves in and out of caster/melee range, they still cause melee damage. I haven't played all the jobs in this game past 30, but as of now, I am currently unaware of any job in this game that actually causes damage when it changes stances.

It is easy to come to the conclusion that players such as yourself enlighten others to the fact that there is no satisfying every gamer out there. Nostalgia, and a past oriented mind makes it impossible to introduce a class or job that lives up to your expectations. I personally wanted RDM to be another healer to compete with SCH, yet I am still giving this job every opportunity to be something really fun and awesome to play, instead of looking for every window to paint it black.

[Empress]

Ramza from the new Dissidia Arcade is probably a good example as to what Thunder Cat is trying to say. If you look on youtube theres a good example of it. I wouldn't say theres not enough because we havent seen the full roster of abilities, but I would say that i was expecting more of a reboot of the class like how AST is a combination of classes. Fencer melee attacks mixed with magic like a Spellblade. Imbune magic onto your blade and do aoe or melee attacks that are with your sword. Probably would of been a cooler aspect as it would of been a better hybrid of both melee and ranged instead of just more range and one or 2 melee abilities but well see since I cant say until full abilities list is released.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

So in short, you don't like what you've seen from this short RDM clip because it makes no indication of tanking.

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Further note, but there was only one, maybe two physical weapon skills. Chargein/retreat aren't going to be gcd weapon skills, but ocd abilities. You can see this much clearly with abilities like Spine shatter Dive, Repelling Shot, and Shoulder Tackle. There are no gcd abilities that forcefully reposition the user, so those attacks can be discounted as weapon skills, leaving four spells, and two physical attacks, or gcds as you prefer, leaving the gap closer/widener as ocd abilities. My gripe, which was explained multiple times already, is that this version of RDM is a caster with a one off physical attack gimmick, just judging on what we know so far. It won't be spending significant time in melee laying the hurt, it'll be predominantly hiding out in the back row spamming spells a safe distance away. That's my issue with this iteration.

Saying I'd have appreciation for this job if I'd played 11 is like saying I'd enjoy a McD's burger if I'd tried convenience store food, it does nothing to help, and in fact only worsens your argument.

You might have discounted that when the RDM weaves in and out of caster/melee range, they still cause melee damage. I haven't played all the jobs in this game past 30.

It's not changing stances, it's changing positions, and as of now, there are 4 jobs in the game that do this much. Bard(Repelling), Monk(Shoulder Tackle) Dragoon(SpineShatter, Dragon fire), and DRK(Plunge).

I have every job in the game at 60 incidentally, which a quick lodestone search would've uncovered and have extensive practice on each one mathing and learning everything I could to learn every nuance I feasibly could.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter.

Factually incorrect. A red Mage is a swordsman that seamlessly blends steel and spells, has access to two functionally opposing varieties of magic, and has unmatched versatility. Even the most basic definition does not leave them as a caster first and foremost, but a blend of the two disciplines, which is a concept that's betrayed by what evidence we have available to peruse. There is a reason RDM is considered a Jack of all trades, and it most definitely has nothing to do with 'Caster first, Swordsman second'.

[Empress]

snip

I agree and with what they were saying about a new combat system I hope itll help the class actually be able to go in an out of melee and dps fluidly since atm being able to do that right now with the current battle system is too clunky and probably will have more problems than people will expect. for example: Rush on Monk but not being able to jump back is kinda dumb since its a martial artist with high kick and jump capabilities.

[Gemina]

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game. In this game, it is going to be an intricate requirement to optimize damage. You seem to have been fed steak before beans. It might not do anything to help, but it is still the truth because if you carry an expectation of a job that cannot be met other than reliving past shit, everyone loses. Including you.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used. How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm? We didn't get shit. No heals used in the vid. Yet, many of us are still well on board to at least see everything the job has to offer before making an informed decision.

[Osmond]

I don't the mind of the change of how RDM plays. Well more like RDM being it's own unique play of the job since it is a hybrid. Looking back other RDM, from it's animations to attacking, it felt like this is the RDM it should be. In a way it make sense to this concept that the team created.

After seeing the video and what they presented on how the job will play, I kept thinking that the melee attacks will be the enders of the combo rotation. Again looking back from other FF titles, it was the magic that was the offense/defense/healing and the weapon was just meh other than stat bonuses. So I'm going to presume that the melee abilities will have some sort of debuff to the enemy or buff to you in some way.

[Hyrist]

I'm reserving judgement until I see the full ability list and all the involved mechanics, but so far I'm not impressed.

Sorry to nail you on semantics but... you are rendering judgement, even if it's tentative.

Strange as I actually had a better take away from you, and am rather impressed that both Melee and Caster were utilized in a seamless manner. Yes, it seems to lean more heavily on casting - but that's not dynamically opposed to what Red Mage is

As much of a front-line proponent as I am, the one thing that seems to divide us here is that you feel as if 'front line' was the sole argument for Red Mage. That seems to snuff in the face of those who prefer the caster aspects of the class. It also kinda pushes away from what your own quote in the signature says - both casts and has regular melee attacks. What I saw displayed in front of me was something who utilizes both cast and melee to benefit one another - which is honestly more than what Red Mage ever was in any of it's previous incarnations. (Previously it was always one way, casting improving physical presence and Physical just being on its own.)

Anyways, it does not matter how the job was displayed this early on. We're still six months out and adjustments will be made - and there will also be discussions on how the class will be played in Meta. For example - Auto Attacks - depending on their overall impact on DPS performance verses other casters playing "At a range" may not be optimal in spite of initial design display. We'll see.

But thematically, I don't see anything wrong with what was displayed - I just see, yet again, Red Mages refusing to agree on what the class 'should be'. And I'm getting too old for that kind of nonsense. If playing it is fun, that's all that matters, and honestly, this is looking fun for me.

[Darkstride]

Personally I don't care how they implement Red Mage as long as it's unique and doesn't negatively affect how other jobs are played.

When Machinist was introduced and had Gauss Barrel, it felt to me like Wanderer's Minuet was just thrown onto Bard so that both ranged DPS had the same mobility. It would have been better to have Machinist utilize Gauss Barrel and have Bard acquire something else that makes them a different version of the same role.