Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Gemina]

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game. In this game, it is going to be an intricate requirement to optimize damage. You seem to have been fed steak before beans. It might not do anything to help, but it is still the truth because if you carry an expectation of a job that cannot be met other than reliving past shit, everyone loses. Including you.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used. How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm? We didn't get shit. No heals used in the vid. Yet, many of us are still well on board to at least see everything the job has to offer before making an informed decision.

[Duelle]

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

That's debatable, since turn-based combat becomes about using what's most efficient per turn. Hence why something like enspells would never work with turn-based combat, specially when you have the option of using that turn for nukes or heals (which unarguably get you more bang for your buck). The base concept of the job is a guy with a sword that uses magic. Using a sword involves being in melee range. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if they had shown us the RDM in melee range doing their thing with Lunge (gap closer) and not-Repelling Shot acting as mere mobility tools. As I've said, it's almost like they ignored the feedback from the melee threads.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game.

One has nothing to do with the other. XI's RDM was a disservice to everyone who liked the idea of a magic swordsman, but this seeming token use of melee attacks is not a positive on its own.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used.

Again, melee mage. Magic swordsman. Do you realize how nonsensical it sounds to force a guy with a short-range melee weapon to have to get away from their target? At this point the only difference between this and the FFXI version is that at least the RDM gets to keep their sword on instead of dropping the sword entirely for a staff. Given the trick weapon the job was given, even that is only a half-truth.

How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm?

You mean the ternary element of the job's concept that is not enough to design a job around? Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

[GMERC]

Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

The only heal bot you should ever have in your party is named Eos. If your human healers are heal bots, they need replacing because they're dead weight. Proper Healers can do plenty of damage, and while Healer Role wasn't something I wanted RDM to be anymore, it still would have been a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the job.

[Hyrist]

*snip*

Duelle,

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history. Please do not historically confuse Red Mage with Sorcerer. Sorcerers has always been the sword-caster.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range. That's part of the Job's original allure. Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

Please, pack it in. It's waay too early to be this heated on it.

[Musashidon]

Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

the whole reason most debate happens is solely because of this reason.

people who say red mage is mainly magic with some physical or some who say red mage was more physical with some magic.

the person who he was talking to even said

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

kinda a shame to solely call out duelle and not the other person too.

[Hyrist]

kinda a shame to solely call out duelle and not the other person too.

There's a singular reason for my motivation on that.

Duelle and I have history. For years, he and I form different parts of the community, fought in the FFXI community to better Red Mage and have it added to the front lines of FFXI's scope of game. I understand, fully, where he individually is coming from as I have been there. I also agree with a lot of his sentimentality, but not the conclusion he draws from it. This is why I call out to him specifically as a peer.

I also do not wholly agree or disagree with Gemina's sentimentality. Historically she is correct, albeit she's depicting it a bit more black and white. It's arguable where the 'strongest of their abilities' is. A lot of Red Mage's magic assists physical (though not as a direct cast attack like sorcerer) Temper is a good example of this (though it was bugged in NES version.) as is Haste. And a Red Mage's weapon selection, in it's incarnations were just as powerful as their magical components, making their normal attacks on par with their magical influence, especially when you factor in that their magic assisted their melee.

This is why you can't take a hard line on the Job one way or another, in my humble opinion. And it's this approach that SE seems to reflect. I have a feeling I'm going to be quite pleased - at least that's my tentative impression. It's flatly not how I initially envisioned it, but that's ok. I always leave room in my expectations to be surprised.

[Duelle]

This is why you can't take a hard line on the Job one way or another, in my humble opinion. And it's this approach that SE seems to reflect.

It's peculiar that SE would decide to do that with RDM when a ton of concessions have already been made for other jobs. BRD was turned from a song-spamming non-fighter into an archer with songs. WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals". DRK was turned from "knight that hurts themselves to deal high damage" to tank. And unlike some people here, I'm okay with concessions as long as there's a general precedent or it "just works".

[GMERC]

WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals".

How new are you? White Magic has included Aero and Tornado as early as Final Fantasy III.

[Duelle]

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

I speak for myself, and always aim to. Others who want certain things out of RDM are free and should disagree with me if they feel the need to.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history.

Again, we have to keep in mind that nearly every iteration of RDM was in games built around turn-based combat. That's an entirely different animal from MMORPG/live-action combat in terms of design and application. Yes, in turn-based RPGs 9 times out of 10 the best way to use a RDM's turn was to have them cast magic.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

I'll disagree. The demo emphasizes range while seemingly treating melee as a thing you do because mechanics rather than uniting both to flow into each other. If we had seen something like, say, melee combo going into insta-cast nuke followed by a hard cast spell followed by repelling shot followed by another spell or Lunge, that paints an entirely different picture (since it'd show that you'll be hitting things with a sword, it somehow allowing you to instacast spells while also having mobility built into the job).

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

Based on the demo, I suspect what's going to happen is some aspect of the gameplay will require you to temporarily get in melee range to either empower future spells or make them cast instantly, then getting out of range to do so.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

I like to think I'm allowed to develop an opinion based on what info we have available. I can still change my mind if something else surfaces or if I were to see the ability list along with what mechanics are part of the job. I did say that so far I was not impressed, and I'm sticking to that.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range.

Simply put, the ranged/melee hybrid thing is needlessly convoluted. It's like they were reaching for something to make up, because a guy in melee range blasting fire into enemies' faces at point blank range in between sword swings was apparently not original enough for them.

As I've said, we'll see how this turns out, but I'd be lying if I claimed excitement about what has been shown so far. I still really want to see that ability list.

the whole reason most debate happens is solely because of this reason.

people who say red mage is mainly magic with some physical or some who say red mage was more physical with some magic.

To be fair, this discussion wouldn't be happening if we had specializations per job (instead we'd all be arguing to ensure both caster RDM and melee RDM are balanced with each other). Since we don't, we're obviously going to lean towards our preferences.

[Hyrist]

I speak for myself, and always aim to. Others who want certain things out of RDM are free and should disagree with me if they feel the need to.

I do, respectfully of course. Because I think this differs from the initial visions you and I talked about years ago when Red Mage was still something we thought might come with a Realm Reborn. We both agreed that Front line should be an integral part of the class.

Again, we have to keep in mind that nearly every iteration of RDM was in games built around turn-based combat. That's an entirely different animal from MMORPG/live-action combat in terms of design and application. Yes, in turn-based RPGs 9 times out of 10 the best way to use a RDM's turn was to have them cast magic.

This is both true, and not. We have to consider the archetypal deviants that existed in non-job orientated titles. Celes, Terra, towards the beginning of their games and virtually every open ability meld system works closely with the archetype. In reality, the ATB system isn't much different than the MMO's internal timer system always set to 'active' rather than 'wait', and often it is wise to think that way when you think of things like rotations and timers.

I'll disagree. The demo emphasizes range while seemingly treating melee as a thing you do because mechanics rather than uniting both to flow into each other. If we had seen something like, say, melee combo going into insta-cast nuke followed by a hard cast spell followed by repelling shot followed by another spell or Lunge, that paints an entirely different picture (since it'd show that you'll be hitting things with a sword, it somehow allowing you to instacast spells while also having mobility built into the job).

I think the demo emphasizes nothing of the sort. Honestly. Whether you cast at a range or up close is irrelevant in this case. The range mainly was shown to give a good showcase and give light to the two positional skills they were highlighting. It shows that these spells CAN be cast at a range, people are simply inferring that they have to.

Based on the demo, I suspect what's going to happen is some aspect of the gameplay will require you to temporarily get in melee range to either empower future spells or make them cast instantly, then getting out of range to do so.
I like to think I'm allowed to develop an opinion based on what info we have available. I can still change my mind if something else surfaces or if I were to see the ability list along with what mechanics are part of the job. I did say that so far I was not impressed, and I'm sticking to that.

It seems to me that you're taking a bit of flavor footage in isolation to other information we were provided. "Rapid Positioning" was the term used. Which seems to indicate we will be both front and back lining rather frequently. Ranged DPS is the general label I see they have to apply when considering where on the Queue they place Red Mage. This essentially means we're sharing space with Black Mage, Mechanist, and Bard in optimal Queue conditions.

Simply put, the ranged/melee hybrid thing is needlessly convoluted. It's like they were reaching for something to make up, because a guy in melee range blasting fire into enemies' faces at point blank range in between sword swings was apparently not original enough for them.

This is where we can disagree again. The ability to cast at range was part of what makes Red Mage a versatile machine. Unless they implement a forced penalty for casting at point blank, I don't think your vision is going to be a problem, thematically. What I do suspect is that, depending on the impact of Auto Attacks and frequency of gap closer usage/enemy AoEs, is that positioning within the fight during casting will be a subject debated as situational between each fight.

However, for me, that would be a boon for the Job, not a deterrent. I am with you on wanting to see the full ability list, to see just how many melee-range skills we get in comparisons to range and how they compare. But what we got was a small showcase, likely not a full rotation.

As I've said, we'll see how this turns out, but I'd be lying if I claimed excitement about what has been shown so far. I still really want to see that ability list.
To be fair, this discussion wouldn't be happening if we had specializations per job (instead we'd all be arguing to ensure both caster RDM and melee RDM are balanced with each other). Since we don't, we're obviously going to lean towards our preferences.

I don't agree with the aspect of specializations within a Final Fantasy context. It served little purpose in Final Fantasy XI for what little you could do there. Having a clear and defined role and method does save a lot of convolution I'd prefer to be avoided. Here, even within the argument of Red Mage, which we both know used to be an eternal argument within FFXI - we're limited to the equivalent of "I don't like Bowmage" type arguments here. And that, honestly, I feel is welcome.

I recognize that no matter what happens, Red Mage is going to be divisive - that's sort of become second nature to the class since XI. However, here, the argument is likely to peter out regardless of our opinions.

For me, it will boil down to how frequently we switch into front and back. Whether or not one supports the other more is irrelevant to me so long as I get enough time in the front to make it feel like a true hybrid.

It's peculiar that SE would decide to do that with RDM when a ton of concessions have already been made for other jobs. BRD was turned from a song-spamming non-fighter into an archer with songs. WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals". DRK was turned from "knight that hurts themselves to deal high damage" to tank. And unlike some people here, I'm okay with concessions as long as there's a general precedent or it "just works".

You see, I don't view it mainly as a concession so much as an agreement of vision thus far. I make no mistake that this is 'their' vision of Red mage fitting their idea of how it should work.

Anyways, sorry for the huge post, wanting to give a full respectful reply. I do hope you are ultimately satisfied with the end-result Duelle. You and I have been waiting for this for a very, very long time. I'd hate for you to ultimately be disappointed.