Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

This confuses me so much. How was BD's Red Mage a "Tank" that game was turn based.

The class's innate trait was Revenge, which when they got hit, could proc and give them a free BP. In addition, they could also learn the 'Turn Tables' and 'Eye for an Eye traits, which gave a free bp on dodge and and increased crit rate to the max when the RDM hit low health. I equipped mine with a Red Muleta to boost the rate she got attacked, equipped the counter centric SAM skill set, a sword for more frequent limit breaks, and Buff Up for constantly raising stats, as well as E4E and The cover trait where she'd take the hit for a weakened ally. It worked fairly well, especially when Revenge procced multiple times. Not a gamebreaker, but a style I certainly adored most. Admittedly, I looked at the fact it had Revenge, and started to work on a build based around getting the RDM hit as much as possible, so I suppose I did the best I could to make it a true tank? XD My party was RDM, Spiritmaster, NIN, and BLM.

Admittedly the idea started simply because I was curious if it was actually possible to make a mage job durable, and Revenge made RDM seem like the best candidate, but it worked fairly well, at least IMHO.

Put I will give you major props, because unlike everyone else, you did not mention XI, THANK YOU.

I avoided the game like a plague after what they did to RDM, honestly. XD Making it a refresh bot...

I was mad over the skill reveal trailer for 3.0 when they showed 15 seconds of a BRD not getting anything interesting. So no, the fact someone who might have been really excited for this class, seeing it turn out like this, might make them lose interest.

Someone understands my complaints!

[Eloah]

XD My party was RDM, Spiritmaster, NIN, and BLM.

Sounds cool, seems like an MMO party in a turn based game. I went a different route, Vampire/BLM, Monk/DRK, Salve-Maker/WHM, Valkyrie/Mystic Knight. it was a deadly party, the boosted stats, all those 9999 hits, lol.

But oh yeah..?

RED MAGE, lol.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Sounds cool, seems like an MMO party in a turn based game.

Haha, something like that I guess? I was experimenting with alot of different builds with my "dps", though I could never find something I liked with my ninja. I think I wound up going Nin/Pirate and BLM/SMN. But yeah, I really enjoyed going through the game with an RDM tank. ;u;

[Gemina]

The class's innate trait was Revenge, which when they got hit, could proc and give them a free BP. In addition, they could also learn the 'Turn Tables' and 'Eye for an Eye traits, which gave a free bp on dodge and and increased crit rate to the max when the RDM hit low health. I equipped mine with a Red Muleta to boost the rate she got attacked, equipped the counter centric SAM skill set, a sword for more frequent limit breaks, and Buff Up for constantly raising stats, as well as E4E and The cover trait where she'd take the hit for a weakened ally. It worked fairly well, especially when Revenge procced multiple times. Not a gamebreaker, but a style I certainly adored most. Admittedly, I looked at the fact it had Revenge, and started to work on a build based around getting the RDM hit as much as possible, so I suppose I did the best I could to make it a true tank? XD My party was RDM, Spiritmaster, NIN, and BLM.

So in short, you don't like what you've seen from this short RDM clip because it makes no indication of tanking? You are talking about an attention grabbing RDM in a console version of the game, and this is an mmo where DPS and healers need to focus on NOT grabbing the attention of mobs. It is also really too bad that you didn't play RDM in XI, because you would have a massive amount of appreciation for the thought that has gone into this job for XIV if you did. I think SE knows they really effed up that job in XI, and have put a lot of thought into correcting that mistake.

You are too blind to see that in this very short video we see style that is unique to this game. No class/job weaves in and out of ranged/melee DPS. RDM not only does this, it also weaves in and out of casting magic and doing melee damage. From the video, we are guaranteed that the job not only does ranged DPS, but also gets up close and personal with the target to do melee damage.

Here is what I see in the video as the RDM commences battle:

Magic attack 1 [magic damage]
Magic attack 2 [magic damage]
Instant cast MA [magic damage] - very similar looking to BLM's Scathe
Tether to mob [melee damage] as indicated by Fencer's thrust animation
2x sword attacks [melee damage]
Flips back [melee damage] as indicated by cross slash animation during backflip that they slow down to make sure you don't miss it (how could you not drool at this)
Finisher [huge magic damage] animation very reminiscent to flarestar from FF IX.

Count them up, and even view the video to verify. 8 gcds are used, and are evenly spread 4x magic damage, 4x melee damage, and this RDM does it in STYLE.

You might have discounted that when the RDM weaves in and out of caster/melee range, they still cause melee damage. I haven't played all the jobs in this game past 30, but as of now, I am currently unaware of any job in this game that actually causes damage when it changes stances.

It is easy to come to the conclusion that players such as yourself enlighten others to the fact that there is no satisfying every gamer out there. Nostalgia, and a past oriented mind makes it impossible to introduce a class or job that lives up to your expectations. I personally wanted RDM to be another healer to compete with SCH, yet I am still giving this job every opportunity to be something really fun and awesome to play, instead of looking for every window to paint it black.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

So in short, you don't like what you've seen from this short RDM clip because it makes no indication of tanking.

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Further note, but there was only one, maybe two physical weapon skills. Chargein/retreat aren't going to be gcd weapon skills, but ocd abilities. You can see this much clearly with abilities like Spine shatter Dive, Repelling Shot, and Shoulder Tackle. There are no gcd abilities that forcefully reposition the user, so those attacks can be discounted as weapon skills, leaving four spells, and two physical attacks, or gcds as you prefer, leaving the gap closer/widener as ocd abilities. My gripe, which was explained multiple times already, is that this version of RDM is a caster with a one off physical attack gimmick, just judging on what we know so far. It won't be spending significant time in melee laying the hurt, it'll be predominantly hiding out in the back row spamming spells a safe distance away. That's my issue with this iteration.

Saying I'd have appreciation for this job if I'd played 11 is like saying I'd enjoy a McD's burger if I'd tried convenience store food, it does nothing to help, and in fact only worsens your argument.

You might have discounted that when the RDM weaves in and out of caster/melee range, they still cause melee damage. I haven't played all the jobs in this game past 30.

It's not changing stances, it's changing positions, and as of now, there are 4 jobs in the game that do this much. Bard(Repelling), Monk(Shoulder Tackle) Dragoon(SpineShatter, Dragon fire), and DRK(Plunge).

I have every job in the game at 60 incidentally, which a quick lodestone search would've uncovered and have extensive practice on each one mathing and learning everything I could to learn every nuance I feasibly could.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter.

Factually incorrect. A red Mage is a swordsman that seamlessly blends steel and spells, has access to two functionally opposing varieties of magic, and has unmatched versatility. Even the most basic definition does not leave them as a caster first and foremost, but a blend of the two disciplines, which is a concept that's betrayed by what evidence we have available to peruse. There is a reason RDM is considered a Jack of all trades, and it most definitely has nothing to do with 'Caster first, Swordsman second'.

[Empress]

snip

I agree and with what they were saying about a new combat system I hope itll help the class actually be able to go in an out of melee and dps fluidly since atm being able to do that right now with the current battle system is too clunky and probably will have more problems than people will expect. for example: Rush on Monk but not being able to jump back is kinda dumb since its a martial artist with high kick and jump capabilities.

[Gemina]

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game. In this game, it is going to be an intricate requirement to optimize damage. You seem to have been fed steak before beans. It might not do anything to help, but it is still the truth because if you carry an expectation of a job that cannot be met other than reliving past shit, everyone loses. Including you.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used. How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm? We didn't get shit. No heals used in the vid. Yet, many of us are still well on board to at least see everything the job has to offer before making an informed decision.

[Duelle]

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

That's debatable, since turn-based combat becomes about using what's most efficient per turn. Hence why something like enspells would never work with turn-based combat, specially when you have the option of using that turn for nukes or heals (which unarguably get you more bang for your buck). The base concept of the job is a guy with a sword that uses magic. Using a sword involves being in melee range. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if they had shown us the RDM in melee range doing their thing with Lunge (gap closer) and not-Repelling Shot acting as mere mobility tools. As I've said, it's almost like they ignored the feedback from the melee threads.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game.

One has nothing to do with the other. XI's RDM was a disservice to everyone who liked the idea of a magic swordsman, but this seeming token use of melee attacks is not a positive on its own.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used.

Again, melee mage. Magic swordsman. Do you realize how nonsensical it sounds to force a guy with a short-range melee weapon to have to get away from their target? At this point the only difference between this and the FFXI version is that at least the RDM gets to keep their sword on instead of dropping the sword entirely for a staff. Given the trick weapon the job was given, even that is only a half-truth.

How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm?

You mean the ternary element of the job's concept that is not enough to design a job around? Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

[GMERC]

Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

The only heal bot you should ever have in your party is named Eos. If your human healers are heal bots, they need replacing because they're dead weight. Proper Healers can do plenty of damage, and while Healer Role wasn't something I wanted RDM to be anymore, it still would have been a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the job.

[Hyrist]

*snip*

Duelle,

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history. Please do not historically confuse Red Mage with Sorcerer. Sorcerers has always been the sword-caster.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range. That's part of the Job's original allure. Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

Please, pack it in. It's waay too early to be this heated on it.