Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[GMERC]

Considering we don't have elemental resistances and meaningful debuffs, this is the best RDM we can have...

Attacking on meh mobs, exploiting elemental or status weaknesses, sub healing, buffing... that's how I always used RDMs in other FFs, we can't do these things here without changing the core of the game, so as long as it works 50% caster 50% melee I will be happy, but having a BLM with a pointy end staff to stab things every 5min would be very disappointing, I guess we'll have to wait to see more.

Prepare for disappointment then, because it's definitely not a 50/50 split, and the balance isn't leaning in favor of a primarily close-quarters job. Luckily I'll be getting what I wanted, so I don't care.

Don't cry if you're only in melee range as often as a MCH applies Wildfire.

[Gumbercules]

Prepare for disappointment then, because it's definitely not a 50/50 split, and the balance isn't leaning in favor of a primarily close-quarters job. Luckily I'll be getting what I wanted, so I don't care.

Don't cry if you're only in melee range as often as a MCH applies Wildfire.

I think the "wildfire" aspect ill be the chainspell(s), that said I don't see a 50/50 either, prolly more like fire phase vs ice phase for blm but more lax so maybe like 70 casting/30 melee.

[EdwinLi]

I am just stating my own opinion here but I am guessing the sword skills are mostly magic energy sword skills thus they're still range attacks but mostly sword slash waves of magical energy for the range attacks and the closing in attacks are just range charge attacks that end with the Red Mage Jumping back into position.

I don't think they're going for the whole "force players into melee combat then back to range combat then back to melee then back to range" thing as a mechanic but just sticking with Range combat with skills having animations of the Red Mage getting up close and personal for a moment before returning to position.

Tbh I'm not so sure about the reduced potency in melee range. Seems like that would kill Rdm dps during a lot of fight mechanics that require one to stack or avoid something on the field. Especially since there really isn't anything outside of avoiding AoEs and movement while casting that is keeping Blm/Smn from being played in Melee range.

I could see SE forcing a min requirement on the positional skills though and having those combo into weaponskills/more magic i.e. Rdm can't use the big nuke until pulling off a melee combo that ends with a back flip move usable only at a certain distance. I could see the same with weaponskill combos and chaining magic. This way you have an incentive to pay attention to positioning, but aren't completely screwed during periods when those positions can't be reached.

Not to mention the dangerous cliffs of doom parts in certain boss fights where players may accidently jump off to their doom or land on a dangerous spot they must always avoid.

[Omegakiyohime]

I wonder what spell/mechanic Rdm will get to replenish MP like the other DPS casters. Part of me is hoping for some type of self "Refresh" spell/skill/weaponskill effect as a callback to past Rdms.

[Darkstride]

BRD was turned from a song-spamming non-fighter into an archer with songs. WHM was turned from "Holy only" to "sort of like an elementalist but still heals". DRK was turned from "knight that hurts themselves to deal high damage" to tank.

A lot of that is a result of the original class system from 1.0 being adjusted to adapt to the introduction of jobs. Conjurer was originally an elemental caster while Thaumaturge focused primarily on light and dark with debuffs and healing.

When jobs were added, they had to associate them with a base class, but some of them didn't quite align well and got revamped. Bard got attached to Archer as there was no song-oriented class. Conjurer and Thaumaturge got their elements shuffled (and sort of got their roles reversed) to accommodate White Mage and Black Mage.

[Radacci]

we've seen 6 skills - one spell combo, 1 melee skill, and ppl think that's all there is to it?
it's like showing drg heavy thrust + 4 tier combo + geirskogul, and omg drg is so bland, is that all there is to it?

snip

the reason it's usually not in melee range, is cause auto attack is physical, and RDM is caster, so it will do shitty AA damage like all other casters/healers (sword skills will be magical too)
this was a short demonstration of 7 skills (compared to the 30 something we'll have at lv70)
it may very well have a melee range combo, and you can use whatever combo you want, depending on range.
just because they use skills in this order, doesn't mean it's an actual combo, or that "evasive jump" is part of any combo, or that you only use 1 melee skill before jumping out.
you're just assuming shit, when you know shit.

Factually incorrect. A red Mage is a swordsman that seamlessly blends steel and spells, has access to two functionally opposing varieties of magic, and has unmatched versatility. Even the most basic definition does not leave them as a caster first and foremost, but a blend of the two disciplines, which is a concept that's betrayed by what evidence we have available to peruse. There is a reason RDM is considered a Jack of all trades, and it most definitely has nothing to do with 'Caster first, Swordsman second'.

this is FF FOURTEEN which is a fact that many seem to forget. we only have SINGLE ROLE JOBS, so RDM CANT work in the traditional sense; since it's red MAGE, it makes more sense to have it as a caster role in FF FOURTEEN.
It's a caster, that has some sword skills, again, you only seen 7 out of 30ish skills, so why are you talking about "evidence"? there's no evidence; it might just be 7 random skills in random order, leaving out a whole or multiple combos.

I'm sure they will have magic potency reduced when in melee range, RDM will be constantly moving in and out using charge and back flip ogcd skills, to build stacks, that's how I see it.

that would be really dumb, because there's many instances where you need to stack behind/front of boss.
that's like nerfing mch melee damage, because they have repelling shot....just absurd.

[Renik]

that would be really dumb, because there's many instances where you need to stack behind/front of boss.
that's like nerfing mch melee damage, because they have repelling shot....just absurd.

Mages have to stop casting to move, melees have to move away to evade certain attacks, mnk loses stacks, some melees have to ignore positionals on certain bosses, these things are happening already, DPS gets affected by mechanics occasionally, but it's not the norm, these things are being considered into a fight's balance. It may be a potency reduction or min distance to cast certain spells, but there will be a reason that will make you go back to range after meleeing, and getting a potency reduction is the more forgivable one as I see it, it will allow you to dps even if ti's with reduced damage.

[Duelle]

just because they use skills in this order, doesn't mean it's an actual combo, or that "evasive jump" is part of any combo, or that you only use 1 melee skill before jumping out.

Considering not-flare was instant cast after Million Stab+Repelling Shot, my guess is that there's a proc involved somewhere. Or "melee" hits apply a stacking buff that reduces cast time by 33% per stack. I'm leaning towards a proc because I could have sworn I saw something happen while the RDM was using Million Stab.

This is both true, and not. We have to consider the archetypal deviants that existed in non-job orientated titles. Celes, Terra, towards the beginning of their games and virtually every open ability meld system works closely with the archetype. In reality, the ATB system isn't much different than the MMO's internal timer system always set to 'active' rather than 'wait', and often it is wise to think that way when you think of things like rotations and timers.

The key difference is that turn-based combat doesn't have toggles, OGCD abilities, reactionary abilities and effects that happen as a result of other actions. Those factors make a lot of things that are impossible in turn-based RPGs possible in live action combat when it comes to class design.

Using enspells as an example, they don't work in a console FF because you're wasting a turn for a buff with a set duration that would have to be stupidly powerful to justify its existence. If we transition into live combat, we gain at least two ways to implement enspells without wasting time mid-battle. One would be as a toggle (not unlike Darkside or a stance like Sword Oath), the other would be as a result of something else (cast fire on target, use a certain sword skill on target = your sword is enchanted with fire for X seconds).

Beyond enspells there's also mechanics. One example of such is physical attacks having some effect on the spells in the job's arsenal. Either cooldown resets, cast time removal, empowerment of the next spell and so on. All of these work in live combat but do not in turn-based RPGs because it'd take too many character turns to set things up.

This is why I argue that we have to look at console RPGs and their elements as completely separate animals from MMORPGs and what those games require to have functional classes. To bring it back to what I was saying earlier, in console FFs you get more bang for your buck having a RDM cast spells in part because turn-based combat doesn't allow for hybrid elements to truly shine; per the limits of turn-based combat, you have a someone with less strength than a warrior and mediocre white/black magic. Live action combat changes that entirely because of a lot of possible mechanics that enter the mix, making the notion of spells generating the best results from a RDM outdated and no longer applicable.

I think the demo emphasizes nothing of the sort. Honestly. Whether you cast at a range or up close is irrelevant in this case. The range mainly was shown to give a good showcase and give light to the two positional skills they were highlighting. It shows that these spells CAN be cast at a range, people are simply inferring that they have to.

What I said and what you're saying are both assumptions. Knowing the way the developers implement things, I wouldn't be surprised if the spells can only be cast once you're a certain distance from the mob OR have damage penalties based on how close you are to the mob. I find it likely since they would not have bothered to mention the whole range thing otherwise.

It seems to me that you're taking a bit of flavor footage in isolation to other information we were provided. "Rapid Positioning" was the term used. Which seems to indicate we will be both front and back lining rather frequently.

I ignored the "Rapid Positioning" thing because it sounds like meaningless buzz words due to having no context. It would have been nice to clarify things by saying "this job is highly mobile" instead of alluding to other things. Going in and out of melee for its own sake (instead of to avoid ground-target AoEs and boss mechanics) is basically what I described in my other post; melee being token rather than a core aspect of the job. On top of being a poor gimmick.

This is where we can disagree again. The ability to cast at range was part of what makes Red Mage a versatile machine.

I'm not denying the advantages of having ranged spells. A RDM would benefit from that in encounters where the boss goes out of melee range since it'd be able to help nuke from a distance. The most common caveat for spells with range is that their use outside of combos/procs is inconvenient and very resource intensive, which is supposed to balance out the hybrid having those spells in the first place (since it gives them a clear advantage over the other melee). Of course, we don't know if that's how it'll actually be to play a RDM.

You see, I don't view it mainly as a concession so much as an agreement of vision thus far. I make no mistake that this is 'their' vision of Red mage fitting their idea of how it should work.

When you have to give up or alter parts of a concept, you're making a concession. SE did it with BRD when they decided to drop the non-combat song spam in favor of archery with songs. They did it with DRK when they dropped the self-damage aspects of the job to make it a viable tank. For RDM the concessions included moving away from the generalist label to make it fit into one of the three roles. This is why I wasn't making a big deal about things like "RDM is a jack of all trades so it cant work in this game" or anything along those lines; I knew and understood something would have to be changed to make the job possible.

[Gumbercules]

I feel ill be based around its positional moves to be honest, like cast at range lunge in melee to set up chain/rest mp repel out cast chain(s) What I don't really know is how the incentive for this cycle ill work. You start out casting just cuz spells at "face value" are more potency, then jump in to melee to debuff for chain spell(s) the cast your "bursts phase" chain spell rotation, which maybe debuffs to prepare mobs to take better elemental damage? The pacing gets my attention cuz it reminds me a bit of why i liked rdm solo in ff 11, the "cycle" of debuff > cast >rest etc. To be honest im pretty excited atm, i honestly was afraid ff 14s version of rdm was gonna be gld with en- spells XD (don't kill me im assuming the melee phase might have en- spell elements!, just meant im glad its a raw actual caster and not some put fire in sword hit! put air in sword hit thing)

if you played legion, what im imagining is like Demon hunter without the derping all over the palce part, kinda like if you lept out and used like 3-4 glaive tosses lol, then ran in build up 4 glaive tosses then ran out, but rdm would have a third phase to this. Kinda why im expecting the whole "rotation" to maybe be about 45sec-1min long with the chainspell(s) being the big finale.

[LunaFaye]

more jumps, we needed more jumps and I am all for new jump animations. Why constantly make the drg's feel bad, when by 4.0 they will have a buddy to share the floor with. I am looking forward to it...