Red Mage thread

[Cynfael]

The beauty of hybrids is that they have skills that are not used 100% of the time but are nice to have. PLD with Clemency comes to mind because Clemency was added under that same idea; the prohibitive MP cost plus the fact it's not easy to get it out while taking hits to the face make this quite evident. RDM could get a similar ability/spell that your normal gameplay discourages using but is there in case things go south. Of course, being able to cross-class Cure and have something that lets it scale with our stats to be stronger than a character with 0 MND while being well below WHM would be fine too.

What concerns me about that line of thinking is that there isn't much appeal to a Job whose claim to fame is having abilities that are either incredibly niche or useful only when things go south. A DPS with a healing spell is such a sadly redundant thing in 99.9% of scenarios that I wouldn't want to see RDM celebrated as a "hybrid" when that really means "half-assed."

To use SCH as an example of a hybrid Job (since it's probably the closest we have to one), it only works because dealing damage does not conflict with its primary function of healing. However, since only so much healing is required, healing actions most certainly conflict with the primary function of the DPS role. Assuming the actual healer isn't asleep at the wheel, there's no point at all to DPS using their GCDs to heal.

Anyway, I really doubt that the devs would do this; they seem to understand that a DPS has to be able to deal damage first-and-foremost, so they'll probably keep the bloat of quasi-useless flavor abilities down to a minimum.

[Duelle]

What concerns me about that line of thinking is that there isn't much appeal to a Job whose claim to fame is having abilities that are either incredibly niche or useful only when things go south.

By your logic PLD shouldn't have Clemency in its current state, and skills that are not "useful" 100% of the time shouldn't exist. It's actually okay to have skills and spells that aren't useful all the time as long as a) they contribute to the thematics of the job in question and b) can serve some sort of purpose in overall function of the job.

A DPS with a healing spell is such a sadly redundant thing in 99.9% of scenarios that I wouldn't want to see RDM celebrated as a "hybrid" when that really means "half-assed."

It's worked in the past, and it would work again if SE chose to go that direction with RDM (sadly, they aren't).

Anyway, I really doubt that the devs would do this; they seem to understand that a DPS has to be able to deal damage first-and-foremost, so they'll probably keep the bloat of quasi-useless flavor abilities down to a minimum.

Having access to a healing spell wouldn't take away from RDM's DPS potential. Especially if you attach the used of the heal to a mechanic that costs the RDM DPS.

Since I seem to need to bring this back every now and then, we have the Art of War mechanic. A proc that makes the next nuke or heal instant cast, and only procs from melee hits. The result is that as you hit things with your weapon, you get procs and decide how to use them. Use it to insta-nuke the target and keep up your DPS, or use the proc to toss a quick heal before returning to hitting the mob. Bonus being that the class that had this mechanic did not have severely neutered DPS compared to the other melee DPS, despite having heals AND having barriers that could be placed on party/raid members.

As I've said, it works; I wouldn't be an advocate of it if it didn't.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

Clemency is saved from being utterly useless simply because the class that has it is usually in the position of taking massive amounts of damage. Clemency is still completely unnecessary most of the time provided that the healer knows what they are doing, but it's not a total trash skill. Generally speaking, though, it tends to be better that the PLD continue to attack rather than stop to self-heal.

True hybrids don't work in this game. Your opinion is your own, of course, and valid as far as that goes, but there's nothing in this particular game thus far that supports a true hybrid class being successful unless you want to consider SCH one.

I've already covered how an oGCD action that happens to heal someone wouldn't be horrible (even if it most likely wouldn't be very useful), but I wouldn't want to see actions like that become the focus or theme of a DPS Job, because no one needs a healing DPS. That's more or less my point.

[Duelle]

Clemency is saved from being utterly useless simply because the class that has it is usually in the position of taking massive amounts of damage. Clemency is still completely unnecessary most of the time provided that the healer knows what they are doing, but it's not a total trash skill. Generally speaking, though, it tends to be better that the PLD continue to attack rather than stop to self-heal.

In the case of PLD, this is because the PLD is busy tanking. A DPS with clemency would have more opportunities to use it (though, as I've said, you'd need to tie it to some mechanic to limit/control its use).

True hybrids don't work in this game. Your opinion is your own, of course, and valid as far as that goes, but there's nothing in this particular game thus far that supports a true hybrid class being successful unless you want to consider SCH one.

I'm not sure where you get that I'm asking for a "true" hybrid. I know well enough that it wouldn't work in this game. My argument was that you can't base utility on whether it's used all the time. I could take it a step further and say that at that point it's no longer utility, but a rotational ability.

I've already covered how an oGCD action that happens to heal someone wouldn't be horrible (even if it most likely wouldn't be very useful), but I wouldn't want to see actions like that become the focus or theme of a DPS Job, because no one needs a healing DPS. That's more or less my point.

Now I'm convinced you're not understanding the other side of this conversation. No one is asking for a healing DPS. What is being asked for is some limited utility that involves healing. Firstly because it fits the concept of the job (RDM being a combination of swordplay, white magic and black magic) and second because it could prove useful in cases where things start to go badly but at a notable cost to the RDM.

I'd personally still want the job to focus on DPS and would expect the bulk of the skills to be meant for that. If you need examples of what I was hoping to see with RDM, I'll point to WoW's enhancement shaman and retribution paladin, since those are actual "hybrids" that focus on DPS but have utility built into them; both fight in melee range (hint hint, SE), both can spot heal but quickly consume resources when doing so (which means you're likely not using heals but are there if shit hits the fan), both have some form of party/raid buffs, and the latter has the equivalent of Benediction but better and a cooldown that makes one party member immune to physical damage.

[Cynfael]

snip.

By this point I'm getting the idea that we don't actually disagree on much of anything. I'm just emphasizing the risk of having healing-type utility as a DPS Job gimmick because a lot of people in various sections of the forums seem to be excited about the possibility of RDM having healing, and game designers everywhere seem to balance the scales in ways that don't actually mesh with player needs. I wouldn't want to see "RDM has slightly lower DPS than X Job because it has the ability to clutch heal/mitigate damage/what-have-you" since the actual demand for additional healing and mitigation outside of the healing and tank roles, respectively, is basically nil.

[Apeiron]

So, I'm a little confused by people saying RDM will have black/white magic since according to the slide they provided they've stated red magic is a hybrid of black and white magic... yet everyone is so focused on what healing spells RDM will get?

What we might be more likely to see are things like low oGCD abilities that help buff healing (think something like Mantra) and a buff/debuff to help DPS casters (similar to something like Foe's Requiem maybe?). I don't expect to see a piercing resistance debuff, though. If I remember correctly, there was an interview where Yoshi-P was asked if RDM would deal physical damage, and Yoshi-P started to explain but stopped himself because he didn't want to give anything away. If we do get one, then we're looking at DRG Disembowel being overwritten like with what happens to WAR Storm's Eye/NIN Dancing Edge and DRK Delirium/MNK Dragon Kick.

The skills used in the video to me ring of something like the MCH Wildfire. Cast "Chainspell" for X amount of seconds Y% of damage done to target is compiled and dealt at the end of the duration. Rushing in would allow the RDM to apply DoT(s) or a debuff, or get close to aide the party with a utility ability, and then jumping back out would re-position them to return to their red magic rotation. The positionals would be important because if you're too far from the main body of your party, they can't benefit from your utility, and if you're too close you're likely to eat more damage.

While the traditional RDM has been the jack of all trade, utilizing both white and black magic, it's been stated before that the FFXIV RDM would be different from previous installments (could be mis-remembering this and I don't remember when/where the statement was made). The hybridization of white/black could purely be lore related, and we will see the faintest of traces of white magic in the elements used for spells, or how a RDM might augment potency of party abilities/skills.

...Thoughts? Need someone to double check I'm not using crazy logic here.

[Madrone]

So, I'm a little confused by...

It only takes 1 spell to have utilty healing. Casters have one now from either being ACN or from cross class, its just failed to scale with what ilvl does to our max hp. So it wouldn't even need to be a native red magic spell per se. So long as there was a way to leverage the stat that powers it, or said spell's very poor scaling was fixed in either the 4.0 battle skill review/purge or cross role skill system re-org.

Because its a dps, its worth discussing dps healing capabilities. RDM should have something. Everyone else but MCN does, and looks like they'll fix that too in 4.0.

Utility sort of determines how desirable a dps job is in raid settings. There are other, more important utilities than weak self or off healing from a dps, but a lot of people are looking for the familiar traces of actual RDM that will make it through into XIV RDM. Swords, check. Its a dps so offensive/debuff (black magic), check. Healing/buffing (white magic), ????? Just talking about what might be acceptable and still balanced with the other dps jobs.


The skills in the video looked more like /battlestance, Chainspell, attack spell A, attack spell B, oGCD lunge, Weaponskill A, oGCD backflip slash, spell finisher A, /victorypose. Maybe a spell/melee combo that works like mudras resulting in different finishing effects depending on what you put into it. Probably not rotationally accurate though. Just some skills with animations that were ready to show off.

Sharing piercing debuff wouldn't be bad. We wouldn't go out of our way to apply it with a DRG in party. Its desirable for any party with a brd or mcn, so any 8 man raid group would want either a rdm or a drg, if they both had it. DRG has a monopoly on it right now. RDM could be fine without it though. It might in fact do all magical damage or mostly magical damage.

I'm really leaning on RDM being like Casters in many ways, and NIN.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

"RDM has slightly lower DPS than X Job because it has the ability to clutch heal/mitigate damage/what-have-you".

Rend Mind. Dismantle. Dragon Kick. Virus. E4E. One thing that these all have in common is the fact that they all mitigate damage. 2 of these are available to healers as well, however, it still remains that MCH, with Dis/RM and a clutch Virus or lucky E4E proc can come from jobs that aren't involved with tanking/healing. This argument is not only moot, it's completely dead in the water out the starting gate. There's dps jobs with mitigation skills, and their dps hardly suffers for it.