Red Mage thread

[Rivxkobe]

Why are so many people hell-bent on wanting it to be like redmage from FFXI?

Its going to be a damage dealer, not a support.

[Mhaeric]

Why are so many people hell-bent on wanting it to be like redmage from FFXI?

Its going to be a damage dealer, not a support.

It'll likely have support in the same way that Bard, Machinist, and Ninja have support.

[Cynfael]

Why are so many people hell-bent on wanting it to be like redmage from FFXI?

Its going to be a damage dealer, not a support.

I'm fine with some situational support abilities, much like SMN and BLM have, but I keep seeing requests for heals, and the last thing I want is for it to have tacked-on healing. Something oGCD that happens to heal self or ally while it applies a useful buff/debuff or deals damage would be okay for a niche bonus or clutch support skill, but since RDM is going to be a DPS class, any ability that consumes GCDs while failing to enhance or protect its ability to deal damage is going to be nigh-useless.

Thinking about RDM having heals brings to mind some Russian proverb I once heard about a priest needing an accordion. If we don't want DPS to be casting heals (and we really don't), we shouldn't make them part of their kits outside of the obligatory cross-class Cure/Physick for low-level hijinks or the emergency self-heal.

[Dualblade]

I'm fine with some situational support abilities, much like SMN and BLM have, but I keep seeing requests for heals, and the last thing I want is for it to have tacked-on healing.

Past Red Mages have had healing as well as attack spells and the like so it isn't surprising that people expect/want this version to have something similar as well. On the other hand Red Mages are a mix of Black and White magic, NOT attack and healing magic. The White Mage in this game is probably one of the most offensive-styled ones due to being connected to Conjurer which also works well in making Red more offensive as well.

If they do get heals it will either be oGCD OR possibly be a GCD skill(s) that can work with the Chainspell so it can still help the big damage spell at the end. Atleast if I understood right that the Chainspells lead up to one big blast.

[Cynfael]

Past Red Mages have had healing as well as attack spells and the like so it isn't surprising that people expect/want this version to have something similar as well.

Oh, I understand why some people would be thinking along those lines; they should just remember how FFXIV gameplay actually works. Sometimes the community gets caught up in imagining how a given Job should be like its incarnation from Final Fantasy XYZ and forgets that a lot of what worked in previous entries in the franchise absolutely does not work here.

[Duelle]

I'm fine with some situational support abilities, much like SMN and BLM have, but I keep seeing requests for heals, and the last thing I want is for it to have tacked-on healing. Something oGCD that happens to heal self or ally while it applies a useful buff/debuff or deals damage would be okay for a niche bonus or clutch support skill, but since RDM is going to be a DPS class, any ability that consumes GCDs while failing to enhance or protect its ability to deal damage is going to be nigh-useless.

The beauty of hybrids is that they have skills that are not used 100% of the time but are nice to have. PLD with Clemency comes to mind because Clemency was added under that same idea; the prohibitive MP cost plus the fact it's not easy to get it out while taking hits to the face make this quite evident. RDM could get a similar ability/spell that your normal gameplay discourages using but is there in case things go south. Of course, being able to cross-class Cure and have something that lets it scale with our stats to be stronger than a character with 0 MND while being well below WHM would be fine too.

Personally, the only part of it from FFXI is the part where it links spells, and makes HELLA explosions.

What bugs me about that is that Red Mage was never about huge explosions, since they're supposed to have weaker magic than WHM and BLM. Which means RDM should shine in how they use those weaker spells rather than being given their own versions of Flare et al.

[Cynfael]

The beauty of hybrids is that they have skills that are not used 100% of the time but are nice to have. PLD with Clemency comes to mind because Clemency was added under that same idea; the prohibitive MP cost plus the fact it's not easy to get it out while taking hits to the face make this quite evident. RDM could get a similar ability/spell that your normal gameplay discourages using but is there in case things go south. Of course, being able to cross-class Cure and have something that lets it scale with our stats to be stronger than a character with 0 MND while being well below WHM would be fine too.

What concerns me about that line of thinking is that there isn't much appeal to a Job whose claim to fame is having abilities that are either incredibly niche or useful only when things go south. A DPS with a healing spell is such a sadly redundant thing in 99.9% of scenarios that I wouldn't want to see RDM celebrated as a "hybrid" when that really means "half-assed."

To use SCH as an example of a hybrid Job (since it's probably the closest we have to one), it only works because dealing damage does not conflict with its primary function of healing. However, since only so much healing is required, healing actions most certainly conflict with the primary function of the DPS role. Assuming the actual healer isn't asleep at the wheel, there's no point at all to DPS using their GCDs to heal.

Anyway, I really doubt that the devs would do this; they seem to understand that a DPS has to be able to deal damage first-and-foremost, so they'll probably keep the bloat of quasi-useless flavor abilities down to a minimum.

[Duelle]

What concerns me about that line of thinking is that there isn't much appeal to a Job whose claim to fame is having abilities that are either incredibly niche or useful only when things go south.

By your logic PLD shouldn't have Clemency in its current state, and skills that are not "useful" 100% of the time shouldn't exist. It's actually okay to have skills and spells that aren't useful all the time as long as a) they contribute to the thematics of the job in question and b) can serve some sort of purpose in overall function of the job.

A DPS with a healing spell is such a sadly redundant thing in 99.9% of scenarios that I wouldn't want to see RDM celebrated as a "hybrid" when that really means "half-assed."

It's worked in the past, and it would work again if SE chose to go that direction with RDM (sadly, they aren't).

Anyway, I really doubt that the devs would do this; they seem to understand that a DPS has to be able to deal damage first-and-foremost, so they'll probably keep the bloat of quasi-useless flavor abilities down to a minimum.

Having access to a healing spell wouldn't take away from RDM's DPS potential. Especially if you attach the used of the heal to a mechanic that costs the RDM DPS.

Since I seem to need to bring this back every now and then, we have the Art of War mechanic. A proc that makes the next nuke or heal instant cast, and only procs from melee hits. The result is that as you hit things with your weapon, you get procs and decide how to use them. Use it to insta-nuke the target and keep up your DPS, or use the proc to toss a quick heal before returning to hitting the mob. Bonus being that the class that had this mechanic did not have severely neutered DPS compared to the other melee DPS, despite having heals AND having barriers that could be placed on party/raid members.

As I've said, it works; I wouldn't be an advocate of it if it didn't.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

Clemency is saved from being utterly useless simply because the class that has it is usually in the position of taking massive amounts of damage. Clemency is still completely unnecessary most of the time provided that the healer knows what they are doing, but it's not a total trash skill. Generally speaking, though, it tends to be better that the PLD continue to attack rather than stop to self-heal.

True hybrids don't work in this game. Your opinion is your own, of course, and valid as far as that goes, but there's nothing in this particular game thus far that supports a true hybrid class being successful unless you want to consider SCH one.

I've already covered how an oGCD action that happens to heal someone wouldn't be horrible (even if it most likely wouldn't be very useful), but I wouldn't want to see actions like that become the focus or theme of a DPS Job, because no one needs a healing DPS. That's more or less my point.

[Duelle]

Clemency is saved from being utterly useless simply because the class that has it is usually in the position of taking massive amounts of damage. Clemency is still completely unnecessary most of the time provided that the healer knows what they are doing, but it's not a total trash skill. Generally speaking, though, it tends to be better that the PLD continue to attack rather than stop to self-heal.

In the case of PLD, this is because the PLD is busy tanking. A DPS with clemency would have more opportunities to use it (though, as I've said, you'd need to tie it to some mechanic to limit/control its use).

True hybrids don't work in this game. Your opinion is your own, of course, and valid as far as that goes, but there's nothing in this particular game thus far that supports a true hybrid class being successful unless you want to consider SCH one.

I'm not sure where you get that I'm asking for a "true" hybrid. I know well enough that it wouldn't work in this game. My argument was that you can't base utility on whether it's used all the time. I could take it a step further and say that at that point it's no longer utility, but a rotational ability.

I've already covered how an oGCD action that happens to heal someone wouldn't be horrible (even if it most likely wouldn't be very useful), but I wouldn't want to see actions like that become the focus or theme of a DPS Job, because no one needs a healing DPS. That's more or less my point.

Now I'm convinced you're not understanding the other side of this conversation. No one is asking for a healing DPS. What is being asked for is some limited utility that involves healing. Firstly because it fits the concept of the job (RDM being a combination of swordplay, white magic and black magic) and second because it could prove useful in cases where things start to go badly but at a notable cost to the RDM.

I'd personally still want the job to focus on DPS and would expect the bulk of the skills to be meant for that. If you need examples of what I was hoping to see with RDM, I'll point to WoW's enhancement shaman and retribution paladin, since those are actual "hybrids" that focus on DPS but have utility built into them; both fight in melee range (hint hint, SE), both can spot heal but quickly consume resources when doing so (which means you're likely not using heals but are there if shit hits the fan), both have some form of party/raid buffs, and the latter has the equivalent of Benediction but better and a cooldown that makes one party member immune to physical damage.