@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a DPS class!!!

[Enur]

I believe we are agreeing on one point: They could wear either. I merely disagree with the statement that SAM should be pigeonholed into fending armor.

While yes, most DRG gear is just tank gear modded to look lighter that is the point i wish to get across, i want a "lighter" tank. And if we can shake up the bag of norms in the meanwhile, why not? Another tank wearing the same gear as the three others. Dont you think it would be just a wee bit boring? What about the fifth tank they add? should it also have fending armor? sixth? Why should the dps then have their individual grinds when four tanks can share their gear?

One point against this would be gearing tanks as this would unable these samurais the ability to share gear with the other tanks, making gearing them all more tiresome. However as stated above, gearing dps classes is already tiresome, so all in all it would only mean more equal grinds, would it not?

edit:
If DRG's gain acces to a geared tank when they themselves gear up, dont you think just a few of them would be more tempted to try it out?

[Katana190]

I believe we are agreeing on one point: They could wear either. I merely disagree with the statement that SAM should be pigeonholed into fending armor.

While yes, most DRG gear is just tank gear modded to look lighter that is the point i wish to get across, i want a "lighter" tank. And if we can shake up the bag of norms in the meanwhile, why not? Another tank wearing the same gear as the three others. Dont you think it would be just a wee bit boring? What about the fifth tank they add? should it also have fending armor? sixth? Why should the dps then have their individual grinds when four tanks can share their gear?

One point against this would be gearing tanks as this would unable these samurais the ability to share gear with the other tanks, making gearing them all more tiresome. However as stated above, gearing dps classes is already tiresome, so all in all it would only mean more equal grinds, would it not?

edit:
If DRG's gain acces to a geared tank when they themselves gear up, dont you think just a few of them would be more tempted to try it out?

Ahh okay, I get you. It's not a bad idea, as there are many MMO's that Tanks don't all share the same gear. Of course it has it's pro's and con's. The pro like you mentioned would be if you had DRG geared you would feel kinda inclined to give SAM a go as you have the gear for it, the con is it would be hard to be a flexible tank if you had to grind 2 different sets, like you mentioned Melee DPS get this problem, why shouldn't tanks? I understand this.

BUT I do think Fending Gear is just the way SE will continue to do it, and I do believe in the future we will see jobs using Maiming, striking or scouting, just not yet. Or if SAM is made a DPS it will use one of the following (Although I really want it to be a tank, I can't ignore this fact)

[Enur]

BUT I do think Fending Gear is just the way SE will continue to do it, and I do believe in the future we will see jobs using Maiming, striking or scouting, just not yet

I am afraid this will be the way it will go down. I just innerly wish for something to shake up the formula even a tiny bit. Getting the same predictable stuff, year in, year out is getting dull. Make something fresh SE! Make something that strides beside the formula we all know and are tired of.

Getting new content on a regular schedule is great, unless its the same thing we get over and over again. Another fending tank that has high armor stat, low damage, 3-4 mitigation oGC's...



Please SE, dont dissapoint me.

[Shippuu]

If DRG's gain acces to a geared tank when they themselves gear up, dont you think just a few of them would be more tempted to try it out?

Does it outweigh the potential negative effects as you then alienate your dedicated tank player population and make them choose between gearing most of their tanks or a separate one? Then there's also issues such as competing for loot in certain content. Some people tank the 24man raids because they know they won't have to compete for gear rolls. I know I wouldn't want to tank a 24man raid all the time if I had to potentially compete for loot rolls with 5 DPS. By implementing that, you're removing what few perks Tank players get, when ideally you want to increase the perks of playing a tank to incentivize more people to play it.

[Enur]

Does it outweigh the potential negative effects as you then alienate your dedicated tank player population and make them choose between gearing most of their tanks or a separate one?

I fail to see how it would alienate the existing tanking community by creating an option for a fourth alternative tank, without changing the existing tanks. Expecting all future tank jobs to be suited for Fending, just so they can gear them faster is just ridicolous. How about the fifth tank i ask, should it also be Fending? Instead of adding new blood to the tanking scene you wish to spread the existing players over even more jobs?

Then there's also issues such as competing for loot in certain content. Some people tank the 24man raids because they know they won't have to compete for gear rolls.

Tanking only for exclusive loot is an odd point in itself. Would you not tank because you like being in charge? Do you really need a carrot on a stick to keep going? I like my odd evening taking charge of the 24 mans, tanking them. Do i need even more incentive? no. i dont. currently tanks are more than priviledged with tank bonus, mount, titles achievements, instant queues, commendations (these seem to hit me on auto as long as no dps or healer stood out)
You also want free reign on gear?

Once you start thinking about implementing tanks that don't share this common armor type, you run into issues where tank players have to then decide which tank they want to actually gear, stay with the 3 old ones, or only gear that single one.

Do you never draw the line then? Do all future tanks have to be of "Fending" just so that the existing tanks dont have to do more work? Like all the melee dps do right now?



I think it is quite an entitled opinion to hold, that just because a new tank is added, they should have immediate access to all tanks, with the same gear.

[Shippuu]

I fail to see how it would alienate the existing tanking community by creating an option for a fourth alternative tank, without changing the existing tanks. Expecting all future tank jobs to be suited for Fending, just so they can gear them faster is just ridicolous. How about the fifth tank i ask, should it also be Fending? Instead of adding new blood to the tanking scene you wish to spread the existing players over even more jobs?

The same can be asked about what makes you think a DPS job sharing gear with a tank job will make DPS players more likely to try tanking? Yes I expect all future tank jobs to share Fending because from a design standpoint it's the easiest way, changing things up for the sake of change is both risky and potentially brings with it a slew of new problems. SE has shown they play it safe regarding FFXIV, so it's the logical conclusion they're going to continue to do so until the last straw pretty much.

Tanking only for exclusive loot is an odd point in itself. Would you not tank because you like being in charge? Do you really need a carrot on a stick to keep going? I like my odd evening tanking charge of the 24 mans, tanking them. Do i need even more incentive? no. i dont. currently tanks are more than priviledged with tank bonus, mount, titles achievements, instant queues, commendations (these seem to hit me on auto as long as no dps or healer stood out)
You also want free reign on gear?

Yep. It's not fair, but additional incentive needs to be applied towards roles that are less played but desperately essential to keeping the content flowing in this game. It was SE's choice to make it a trinity, and unfortunately that trinity relies on the 3 pillars. So while it wouldn't be fair to DPS players, absolutely more incentive should be given to tanks and healers.

Do you never draw the line then? Do all future tanks have to be of "Fending" just so that the existing tanks dont have to do more work? Like all the melee dps do right now?

I think it is quite an entitled opinion to hold, that just because a new tank is added, they should have immediate access to all tanks, with the same gear.

There are numerous positive reasons for tanks to be Fending only, so no, it's not just so existing tanks don't have to work more, that's simply one of the many reasons it's a good idea though.

Entitled or not, if the tank numbers plummet, the game's health plummets. You need a healthy population of all roles to make this kind of game work. If DPS players don't like that tanks get extra perks, they can simply play tanks.

[Enur]

Entitled or not, if the tank numbers plummet, the game's health plummets. You need a healthy population of all roles to make this kind of game work. If DPS players don't like that tanks get extra perks, they can simply play tanks.

But if the reason for adding fending armor to SAM is that current tanks get even more perks, then we wont gain new tanks.Surely you must have realised by now that perhaps what we really need is a shakeup in the basic formula if we want more tanks. If dps jobs gets more responsability, the one thing that currently in my experience, then more tanks might get te see the light. But until that day we cant just keep adding perks on perks, baiting people into tanking. Tricking them with goodies into doing the bad thing is bad! Its a game, its supposed to be fun to play. If people arent naturally playing then it must be the games fault at making them consider tanking.

And if the amount of tanks truely will "plummet" as you say, what hinders the dev team from adding a third dps partymember in dungeons? this will make the queues for dps 33% faster. Why continue with the same old boring ideas when you could have fresh ones?


And as to the

numerous positive reasons

I'd like to see the list, as i am unable to visualize what huge benefits it will have, aside from the aforementioned ease of gearing.


SE is going to play it safe. That is what im afraid of. they played it safe with arr. People expected as much. they played safe in HW. People started to get upset with the formula. If they play it safe in SB, while i wont quit, many will. "Same old stuff as last expac" doesnt sell. "New and fresh" does. I want new and fresh tank ideas, concepts and executions.


tldr to all my points:
I want change and new reasons for newcomers to tank, as opposed to giving the existing tanking community even more perks.

[Shippuu]

But if the reason for adding fending armor to SAM is that current tanks get even more perks, then we wont gain new tanks.Surely you must have realised by now that perhaps what we really need is a shakeup in the basic formula if we want more tanks. If dps jobs gets more responsability, the one thing that currently in my experience, then more tanks might get te see the light.

Because retaining your existing tanks is just as important as trying to get new ones. They aren't mutually exclusive, just because a system has a perk for current tanks doesn't mean that deters people from taking up tanking. Suddenly tanks go from a 3 for 1 gearing perk to a 4 for 1, which is great for current tanks, but also appealing to new tanks just as much, because they too can gear 4 tanks for the price of 1.

Dark Knight shows evidence that tanking numbers have gone up (as opposed to their downward trend from 2014 to 2015. DRK is also the most played tank, meaning it was absolutely a success. "Shaking up" the basic formula isn't guaranteed results, it's a gamble, and one people have been saying for FFXIV to do for all manner of things in it's game, from endgame, to dungeons, to other content, and time and time again SE has shown they are determined to take things a safer route. For them, it's better to stay the steady course and slowly sink, than try something wild and crazy to "shake things up" and inadvertently sink themselves faster.

SE has shown they aren't willing to hoist responsibility on DPS players in that they still refuse to add an in-game parser, which would put their effort on display for everyone to see if they're pulling their weight or not. Tanks and healers, their mistakes and flubs are all visible to everyone, and that's part of the reason people avoid the roles because of that additional pressure.

But until that day we cant just keep adding perks on perks, baiting people into tanking. Tricking them with goodies into doing the bad thing is bad! Its a game, its supposed to be fun to play. If people arent naturally playing then it must be the games fault at making them consider tanking.

If you can't have fun because someone else gets more/better stuff than you because they're taking up a role that you are choosing not to play, that's not their fault and it isn't SE's fault, that's your fault. It isn't tricking people into it, it's incentivizing them to step out of their comfort zone and to try something they might otherwise not.

And if the amount of tanks truely will "plummet" as you say, what hinders the dev team from adding a third dps partymember in dungeons? this will make the queues for dps 33% faster. Why continue with the same old boring ideas when you could have fresh ones?

I don't know, what stops them from just removing tanks from the game period then? The amount of work you're suggesting is staggering, so naturally they want to avoid that if they can. It might be inevitable in the long run but it's definitely something they want to postpone. Not only does that require retooling the entire matchmaking system and the party system, it would then require rebalancing every single piece of content because now you've got a whole big chunk of more damage. It's not a simple as just saying "More dps in the party!"

I'd like to see the list, as i am unable to visualize what huge benefits it will have, aside from the aforementioned ease of gearing.

I never said huge benefits, just numerous.
Keeps roles and their stats homogenous, this drastically eases balancing especially within the same role. This saves time in terms of itemization as well. It's easier to tweak and balance tanking jobs if they all share the same gear. Once tanks start using different classes of armor it becomes that much harder to balance them. Look at WoW's tanks for example, a troubled history of sweeping buffs and nerfs and a constant struggle as to which classes are the best and the worst. SE has shown time and time again they really want the game's jobs to be balanced even if it means they are less unique from each other. We still see people considering which tanks are best/worst in this game despite the 3 tanks being incredibly well balanced. This further extends then to fight/content design. If you have 4 tanks, yet one of them has overall lower defense because they now wear different armor, a fight that was designed with the first 3 tanks in mind, may now completely destroy the 4th, once again leading to a problem of balance which will then result in 1 or multiple tanks becoming completely unviable and a further stigma attached to tanking. So it causes a pretty big ripple, and it's easy for you to cut down the list by wrapping numerous benefits under the blanket term of "ease of gearing" as there's multiple facets to that.

tldr to all my points:
I want change and new reasons for newcomers to tank, as opposed to giving the existing tanking community even more perks.

Then perhaps FFXIV isn't the game for you, perhaps WoW would be a better fit. I for one do not enjoy working hard and spending tons of time in a game for then everything to flip on it's head into things I don't enjoy.