LOYALTY MODE

[Neptune]

XI wasn't designed to be a "quick race to end-game" like newer MMOs have become. It was designed to be a long-term adventure through a massive and complex virtual world with tons of things going on.

When you're in a hurry, everything seems to "take too long". Many MMO players these days are forever in a hurry.

Yet, for those who approached it as an adventure, as a long-term hobby, not a short term race to the finish line... the game provides many great and memorable experiences. It's all in how you approach it. When you're not in a hurry and just enjoying the journey, how long something takes doesn't even occur to you.

I agreed with this whole point you were making here. I partially wish I had seen FFXI as a hobby when it first came out. It would have changed my perspective on the game. However, it was not sold as a hobby, it was sold as a videogame comparable to FFX.

From reading about FFXI I was mesmerized by the idea of other people in your city who you could talk to. I imagined a city full of people lounging around and just having a good time like the NPCs seem to be having in other RPGs. I imagined having conversations and going on adventures. But let me tell you about my very first hours in FFXI. The game started you in a city with no prior backstory. You're there, and you start talking to NPCs. One NPC in San'doria gives you a quest to turn in bat wings. So I go out to fulfill this quest. After a while I wind up with 200 gil. A potion vendored for about 6k. Shoes cost someone around 1k if I remember right. I wound up with enough gil to buy my shoes, but I realized for the exact same amount of time I could have literally made minimum wage somewhere and bought a pair of $60 Nike shoes with the wages. In that sense, it was a huge waste of time. There was no sense of adventure. It was just a pointless grind. It wasn't that I was in a hurry.. there was simply nothing fun about it.

I think that highlights a lot of people's overall experience with FFXI who didn't make it very far. For those who did, including myself later on, you're absolutely right that the game provides many great and memorable experiences. It really was a long-term adventure through a massive and virtual world. However, I think you'll agree with me that that is only half of the story of FFXI.

Speaking of "how people approached them"...

Akumu, you illustrate one of the things in XI that drove me nuts... and (like many other perceived "flaws" in the game) it was the players' doing, not SE's.

I completely see your point of view, but I'd like to bring something to your attention. It's useful to look at the environment when thinking about the behavior of people. Environment always factors in. And it factors in to this situation. Who designs the environment? Guess who, the dev team. Through the creation of the environment the dev team is determining the behavior of players. Like you implied the players always had a choice to resist the environment and, for instance, level in parties away from the Dunes. But that is like swimming upstream. It's hard to find 5 other fishes and convince them all to swim upstream when there's a strong current carrying you to the Dunes. You haven't yet appreciated the role of the dev team in designing the dynamic environment that created the conditions of player behavior you noticed.

I really don't think the dev team was aware that they had even created an environment to the extent that they had. I really don't think they realized that if they had changed this or changed that how different things would have turned out.

The team is more aware now. It used to be in FFXIV that you had everyone solo grinding Coblyns. The players picked the path of least resistance to grinding. The dev team stepped in and raised the HP, changing the environment and the path of least resistance. Now you have leve linking parties and raptor parties. What changed, the players or the environment?

So as you can see the blame truly does lie on the dev team and not the players for these kinds of bad experiences from FFXI. And in the case of Akumu, he played years before level sync. They added level sync, what, 6 or 7 years after launch? My skills were super gimp too once I hit 75. Did you level early on? And what job? Mine and Akumu's experience from leveling with traditional parties was gimped skills, due to game design, or more accurately, the lack thereof.

So I'm really glad you posted, because you brought to light this truly valuable discussion of the great adventure of FFXI combined with the truly ridiculous timesink. That's what a lot of us see in FFXIV, a long-term, grand adventure.

Great post OP. The reaction from some of the posters here were even better though. FFXIV fanbois r mad.

lol. thanks

Don't forget, first you have to level something to 18 to get a subjob. Level that to 15 then go back to the 18 class and level that to 30 so you can qualify for a quest to unlock the job you really want to play.

Also, lol yeah wow so true. I might have to edit that in...

[Preypacer]

I agreed with this whole point you were making here. I partially wish I had seen FFXI as a hobby when it first came out. It would have changed my perspective on the game. However, it was not sold as a hobby, it was sold as a videogame comparable to FFX.

From reading about FFXI I was mesmerized by the idea of other people in your city who you could talk to. I imagined a city full of people lounging around and just having a good time like the NPCs seem to be having in other RPGs. I imagined having conversations and going on adventures. But let me tell you about my very first hours in FFXI. The game started you in a city with no prior backstory. You're there, and you start talking to NPCs. One NPC in San'doria gives you a quest to turn in bat wings. So I go out to fulfill this quest. After a while I wind up with 200 gil. A potion vendored for about 6k. Shoes cost someone around 1k if I remember right. I wound up with enough gil to buy my shoes, but I realized for the exact same amount of time I could have literally made minimum wage somewhere and bought a pair of $60 Nike shoes with the wages. In that sense, it was a huge waste of time. There was no sense of adventure. It was just a pointless grind. It wasn't that I was in a hurry.. there was simply nothing fun about it.

I experienced the same overall things as you did when I first started.

I started on the day of the NA US release, where *no one*, in the Western market knew what was going on. Unlike you, however, I was fascinated with FFXI from the first hour or so I played it. By the time I logged out that first evening, I was hooked.

I loved how small and lost I felt in this massive world. I loved having to work things out on my own, asking other players for help, or providing help to others when I could (all of which was the beginning of FFXI's oft-praised community).

I still remember feeling like E. Sarutabaruta - merely Windurst's "backyard" - was massive. Running to Starfall Hillock from the Port Windurst gate for the first time felt like this enormous trek into unknown land... I ate it up. I loved having to speak to NPCs to find out who they were, what they did and what they, perhaps, needed from me. I loved that there were no ! or ? or other such indicators over their heads. I had to seek them out. Just like in a classic FF game.

I loved not having gil thrown at me and having to earn what I obtained... what you might (and others certainly do) consider "work", I considered providing an additional level of immersion.

I loved feeling like I'd been dropped into another world where I had to learn and earn my own way, instead of having everything spelled and laid out for me.

It wasn't for everyone, of course. But that's always the case with anything. Nothing is going to be "for" everyone, nor can it be. We're going to try things - foods, movies, books, music, games, etc - that are not going to appeal to us, even though they appeal to many others. We may not "get" why others like it. We also don't have to. Take any given product of any category and you're going to find the same disparity between those who think it's the best thing ever, those who think it's the worst thing ever... and all manner of shades in-between.

People simply need to accept that not everything they decide to try - be it a MMO, a book, a new restaurant, and so on - is going to appeal to them. That doesn't mean there's been some kind of "failure" on the company's part. It just means they've tried something that wasn't up their alley. No harm done. No crime committed.

I think that highlights a lot of people's overall experience with FFXI who didn't make it very far. For those who did, including myself later on, you're absolutely right that the game provides many great and memorable experiences. It really was a long-term adventure through a massive and virtual world. However, I think you'll agree with me that that is only half of the story of FFXI.

I absolutely agree with you and, in fact, stated in my previous post that the game definitely has its share of "WTF were they thinking" aspects to it for me.

For the most part, though, I recognized those as things that I personally had a problem with... but others certainly didn't. I wasn't right and they weren't wrong. We just had different points-of-view on a given issue.

I completely see your point of view, but I'd like to bring something to your attention. It's useful to look at the environment when thinking about the behavior of people. Environment always factors in. And it factors in to this situation. Who designs the environment? Guess who, the dev team. Through the creation of the environment the dev team is determining the behavior of players. Like you implied the players always had a choice to resist the environment and, for instance, level in parties away from the Dunes. But that is like swimming upstream. It's hard to find 5 other fishes and convince them all to swim upstream when there's a strong current carrying you to the Dunes. You haven't yet appreciated the role of the dev team in designing the dynamic environment that created the conditions of player behavior you noticed.

How do you feel they are responsible for people insisting that the Dunes in XI was the "only viable area to level in to level 20"? It clearly wasn't. I leveled 3 jobs on the Windurst side before I stepped foot in the Dunes. It was no faster or slower, no easier or harder. Just different mobs and different landscapes.

If it's "because people didn't want to have to travel by ferry to get to the Windurst side" (a reason I've seen a lot regarding this question), all I'll ask is... How is that any different than people on the Windurst side having to travel by ferry to Selbina? Same trip. Same amount of time. Absolutely the same level range mobs on both sides of the trip... and so on.

There was nothing about the "environment" relating to why people feel the Dunes is the only place you can level to 20. People made the Dunes the "official place to level" because it's where everyone seemed to decide to go. Since most, or at least many, people are perfectly happy to go with the crowd... the Dunes became where everyone went by default.

The reason they insisted and believed that Valkurm was "the only place you could level to 20" was purely through ignorance... either willful or otherwise.

Also, many people I've noticed seem to insist on latching on to the idea of "how you're supposed to play". Anything that works and becomes commonplace is deemed as such, until something newer and better comes along to replace it. Then that new thing becomes "how you're supposed to play". In that way, "leveling to 20 in the Dunes" became just another incarnation of that mindset.

Again... nothing about the area design "made that happen". That entire ordeal is entirely the result of the way people think and behave.

The team is more aware now. It used to be in FFXIV that you had everyone solo grinding Coblyns. The players picked the path of least resistance to grinding. The dev team stepped in and raised the HP, changing the environment and the path of least resistance. Now you have leve linking parties and raptor parties. What changed, the players or the environment?

Valid point, but not a good comparison to what I'm talking about.

You're talking about a single type of mob which was adjusted to keep people from leveling solely on them.

I'm talking about two different regions of a game being equally effective in leveling from 10-20, but people refusing to try one of them because leveling solely in the other had been deemed "How you're supposed to play the game". It was 100% "follow the pack" mentality combined with a closed mind to anything beyond what they were used to.
[/quote]

So as you can see the blame truly does lie on the dev team and not the players for these kinds of bad experiences from FFXI. And in the case of Akumu, he played years before level sync. They added level sync, what, 6 or 7 years after launch? My skills were super gimp too once I hit 75. Did you level early on? And what job? Mine and Akumu's experience from leveling with traditional parties was gimped skills, due to game design, or more accurately, the lack thereof.

Yes, I did level early on... quite a bit. Daily. For hours when possible. Any time I could. Like I said at the start.. I was hooked lol.

That said, I stated that you could still be behind on skillups when you leveled up. But it was typically 1 or 2.. *maybe* 3 job levels worth, which did not take long to catch up in a typical party, fighting mobs comparable to your actual level (not your active, sync'd one).

That is nothing like what I'm describing, where people are dinging 75 in Qufim Island, and their skills have not increased since their job level was 40. Even 10 or more job levels worth of skillups is far from normal.

It was also a very different mindset, overall, back then (at least on Pandemonium). People took leveling their skills very seriously and did their best to keep them as current as possible. Somewhere along the line, that changed... and now the only reason people seem at all concerned about skillups is when they're complaining about how long they have to grind on crabs in Boyadha Tree to catch them up.

So I'm really glad you posted, because you brought to light this truly valuable discussion of the great adventure of FFXI combined with the truly ridiculous timesink. That's what a lot of us see in FFXIV, a long-term, grand adventure.

Heheh.. No problem. I could reminisce about FFXI for hours. Easily.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I have in the past.

[Neptune]

I experienced the same overall things as you did when I first started.

I started on the day of the NA US release, where *no one*, in the Western market knew what was going on. Unlike you, however, I was fascinated with FFXI from the first hour or so I played it. By the time I logged out that first evening, I was hooked.

I'm pretty sure skillups wound up looking a little different then compared to later on. I started really playing in 2007 and my skills were super gimp. I'm not sure if it was 1 - 3 levels worth, but it was probably 40 hours worth of grinding at least. I know they made some adjustments to exp needed to level at some point, perhaps it made skills more gimp.

I'll write more later!