DF Tanks and Whm

[HyoMinPark]

I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

Your expectations are WAY too high for Duty Finder. You may want to lower them, or you will just continue to be disappointed.

u can recover ur tp during downtime

If said fight offers downtime. Or if you have support DPS to help you out. And since you're talking about Alexander, not a lot of the fights have "downtime", save for A8N, and A12N (can't remember Gordias so, those fights may have downtime, too).

And, with DF, you can't guarantee you'll be lucky enough to get a BRD or MCH. And it will take even MORE luck to get one that knows how to sing/promote their turret.

This actually goes back to the party.
DPs and healers have abilities to reduce their aggro generation. It helps tanks a lot, but sadly you won't find people using them regularly in DF because they don't think they are necessary.

^ This. Case in point, perfect example last night in A9N. BLM with 5-6 pieces of 270 gear, fully melded, severely outgearing the MT in the party, complained about MT not holding hate when they did absolutely nothing to control their own aggro (never once saw Quelling go off). Healers in A12N that overheal, and don't manage their hate, and then complain when they rip Alexander Prime off the MT and get slaughtered. People don't feel the need to manage their own hate, and seem to equate using skills like Quelling Strikes as more of a DPS reduction rather than enmity reduction.



Sorry, OP. If I don't know the healers, I am NOT going to drop my tank stance; I'd rather have that padding. I only drop mine if I am with healers I know will keep me up, or if I notice that the PUG healer I have is actually competent.

[Fluffernuff]

Sorry, OP. If I don't know the healers, I am NOT going to drop my tank stance; I'd rather have that padding. I only drop mine if I am with healers I know will keep me up, or if I notice that the PUG healer I have is actually competent.

Just to add to this point (after farming a12n multiple times every week for a single freaking drop) I'm pretty confident in my ability to MT it as DRK/PLD, but I still keep tank stance up just because of the mitigation. Yeah, I know. using tank stance for more than the emnity boost. blasphemy... BUT My survival means much more than the damage I'm doing:
Role > Mechanics > Personal DPS

I mean, just numerically, as a DRK, I take a huge risk dropping grit. taking a Punishing Heat raw w/Grit is a 18-20k hit. 2/3rds of my HP gone. Let's take that hit without Grit... or cooldowns. 20k +20%? so that's 24k out of my ~30-31k HP pool. I have 6-7k hp to survive a mega holy, an auto, and/or maybe a divine spear before the healers -maybe- noticing before i flop over. I can't be relying on living dead for every Punishing heat. But apparently I have to take that risk because I need to do my DPS!

Then again, If I drop grit for "muh damage" and only have say... shadowskin available, that'll be.... still 18-20k damage since shadowskin and grit are... kinda the same mitigation? Now, I can also put up grit before Punishing Heat, sure. But uh... pretty sure it's well known and well documented how MP friendly actually stance dancing is for DRK, right? Grit is very cheap to use as a CD, clearly. And don't get me started about stacking CD's to compensate. DRK has 1 CD lined up for every punishing heat(Shadowskin, DA+DM, and shadow wall). if I stack them for 1, then I AM going to eat 1 raw later (18-24k damage right there). that's NOT a good trade-off. Totally something every healer ever is prepared for without communication, eh?

PLD is even worse in that regard. I mean. I'm alot more free to stance dance for Punishing Heat, but it also is magical damage and ignores blocking. That means PLD doesn't have enough cooldowns and WILL eat a Punishing Heat raw. Punishing Heat laughs at sheltron.
I'm not sure how often PLD will eat a raw PH though, so if it's 1 then they have HG...

All in all I've found that if I drop Grit OR ShO, at all in a12, it REQUIRES the healers to keep me AT LEAST at 21k HP... 100% of the time. and thats just to take the initial hit! if it's the rotation when alex folows up punishing heat with a divine spear? yeah. I'm dead. even mitigated, that combo is like 13K+9k, pretty sure that specific combo is lethal if taken raw.

I have to ask myself. is my DPS worth a wipe? If I die because of a raw Punishing Heat, how much DPS can I do with Weakness?



Just because the highest possible ability can be achieved by others doesn't mean that I can, should, or will, submit to the expectation to achieve that ability.

[SundayTrash]

as dark knight u also have delirium, u can DA + DM the first Punishing Heat and it would only do 13k damage, and remember DM is on short CD so u can alternate between that and shadowskin or shadow wall. as for paladin they have ramparts, sentinel and dividene veil, and by than ur ramparts should be up again.

[Gemina]

If you've seen the amount of WHM and AST I've seen overhealing like mad you wouldn't say such a thing. Also yeah like others said healers like that don't know what Shroud is or care about their hate.

I even saw an AST use Collective right at the beginning of a fight for no reason and use a Diurnal Aspected Helios since obviously the Collectives 3500 HP a tick regen on everyone wasn't enough right /sarcasm lol, MT could no longer use anything but hate combos since the AST was right on his butt with hate because of senseless massive overhealing. Oh and this was without dropping tank stance...if he dropped it the AST would definitely have hate.

Tanks fault? Hell no.

Agreed. Over healing generates serious hate. I don't care how good of a tank you are, I can easily steal hate if I wanted spamming AoE heals on a topped party, or even topped tank and essentially kill myself and force a wipe. The really good tanks can remain competitive, but it is so difficult and makes them work so much harder. Even if you still can maintain hate and wear your tank badge high and proud, you shouldn't have to work that hard. DF is hard, yes. But it should not be THAT hard.

[Fluffernuff]

as dark knight u also have delirium, u can DA + DM the first Punishing Heat and it would only do 13k damage, and remember DM is on short CD so u can alternate between that and shadowskin or shadow wall. as for paladin they have ramparts, sentinel and dividene veil, and by than ur ramparts should be up again.

Delirium is baseline and part of the DPS combo. you must maintain it 100% of the time regardless of MT in tank stance, and especially so in the "my DPS matters" arguement. kinda reaching on that one. the numbers i've seen and been hit by are with delirium active. plus 10%int drop doesnt mean 10% reduced magic damage. This is the same reason Foresight isnt the same thing as rampart or shadowskin.

DA+DM I already brought up and explained. DA+DM is WHY DRK has a cooldown for every Punishing Heat... IF shadowskin/wall/DA+DM are all staggered for it.

Divine Veil on PLD isn't a self cooldown. Why would you bring it up? Veil doesn't give yourself a bubble. That's not how it works. Thus, it is another useless cooldown against Punishing Heat.
between JUST rampart and sentinel, there's a gap. Alex WILL get a raw Punishing Heat off on PLD. 1 can be covered by Hallowed. What I don't know is if there's more than 1 gap before enrage. HG may or may not apply. but it can cover... 1. just 1. So, while useful, HG cant be "cycled"

[Mirch]

Low damage tank + WHM that spams Medica2 to rip hate??!

THAT'S ME!!

muaha lol.

[Belhi]

As a rule, whenever I go into a DF my expectations are that players equal the requirements of their role.

I expect a tank to hold agro and use mitigation.

I expect a healer to make sure no one dies to incoming damage and remove any debuffs that will effect their performance.

I expect dps to provide decent damage on the boss while handling their basic mechanics and avoiding AoEs.

If my group does that I am content because like in any random draw you have no idea what hand your going to end up with. Those basic requirements will generally mean a smooth run. Anything on top of that is a bonus. I prefer a player to play it overly safe and perform their role correctly than a player to try maxing out their dps and doing a half assed job of their actual role.

[SundayTrash]

Divine Veil on PLD isn't a self cooldown. Why would you bring it up?

Think of it this way that 10% of ur hp gets turn into shield still act as a mitigation.

[Legion88]

Think of it this way that 10% of ur hp gets turn into shield still act as a mitigation.

For the party, not for the PLD who use it. So it doesn't work like an addition to your eHP and is useless to mitgate a tankbuster or focused attack on the PLD who used it.

[SundayTrash]

For the party, not for the PLD who use it

Its an aoe for the entire party within 15y, and it also wouldn't hurt to go back to shield oath for a single tank buster b4 going back to sword.