@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[Shippuu]

WAR hasn't taken anything from Viking, actually. It's more than doable, still.

Except it's entire visual style pretty much. Not to mention Viking has appeared in a whopping 2 Final Fantasy games, one of which it had no unique identity except being tanky, and the other it was a spellcaster. Viking is one of the weirdest choices people seem to throw out for future tanks. It's a rare Final Fantasy job with no real unique qualities and doesn't come anywhere close to the appeal or popularity of so many other choices.

[GMERC]

Except it's entire visual style pretty much. Not to mention Viking has appeared in a whopping 2 Final Fantasy games, one of which it had no unique identity except being tanky, and the other it was a spellcaster. Viking is one of the weirdest choices people seem to throw out for future tanks. It's a rare Final Fantasy job with no real unique qualities and doesn't come anywhere close to the appeal or popularity of so many other choices.

And yet you'd be hard pressed to name another viable Tank that isn't Samurai (overwhelmingly likely to be using Katana or Great Katana), Viking (probably using Hammer, Great Hammer, or maybe Hand Axes), or Mystic Knight (using... Swords. Though I suppose you could delegate specifically curved Sabers to them if you wanted. A little tricky considering Paladin themselves have quite a few such weapons already, though I suppose problems like this are bound to happen going forward.)

I don't know if I'd say Viking has no unique qualities, either. What were Dark Knight's unique qualities? Their main first appearance, Cecil, was just a guy who wore heavy armor and mashed the Attack Command along with the ability to trade HP for a fullscreen attack. A large amount of DRK's identity in 14 is entirely created for this game, barring some visual callbacks here and there. A Hammer and a firm Lightning theming is more than enough for them to expand into something interesting here.

[Duelle]

I don't know if I'd say Viking has no unique qualities, either. ... A Hammer and a firm Lightning theming is more than enough for them to expand into something interesting here.

I'd design viking around shouts and either lightning or earth affinities. Big hammer as their weapon, some shouts acting as debuffs (instead of a tank stance, one shout would decrease the damage target does to the viking while also increasing enmity generated against target) while others would buff nearby allies. Have a limiting mechanic where you have to wait between shout uses and have to prepare your shouts before entering combat. Yes, I've played too much Skyrim, but that game played extremely well to the pop culture depiction of vikings (much to the chagrin of historians).

[Shippuu]

And yet you'd be hard pressed to name another viable Tank that isn't Samurai (overwhelmingly likely to be using Katana or Great Katana), Viking (probably using Hammer, Great Hammer, or maybe Hand Axes), or Mystic Knight (using... Swords. Though I suppose you could delegate specifically curved Sabers to them if you wanted. A little tricky considering Paladin themselves have quite a few such weapons already, though I suppose problems like this are bound to happen going forward.)

This is one of the prime reasons it'd be a bit of a tragedy if they made SAM a dps, since there's so few that could fit. Though arguably Beastmaster could function as a tank as well in my opinion but their track record for pet jobs is pretty crap and the system is overall bad for it on top of the fact the pet's role would have to be extremely diminished to actually function. Templar and Soldier are other possibilities along with Judge(master), but those are about it when it comes to armored assaulters. So if not those then SE has to figure out if they want tanks that don't wear Fending stuff, or change job identities to make them wear fending stuff.

But still, Viking has a lot of visual overlap with this game's Warrior, so to me it just seems like a less likely option compared to others that would have a more distinct look to their AF stuff etc. Combined with it's overall lack of representation in past FF games and tbh a less populated fanbase for it I just don't see it as a particularly strong option, certainly not one worth replacing Samurai with.

[StarRosie]

But still, Viking has a lot of visual overlap with this game's Warrior, so to me it just seems like a less likely option compared to others that would have a more distinct look to their AF stuff etc. Combined with it's overall lack of representation in past FF games and tbh a less populated fanbase for it I just don't see it as a particularly strong option, certainly not one worth replacing Samurai with.

Thing is, overlap is bound to happen, while WAR would share visible traits with Viking, I believe they would make Viking stand out with it's playstyle and possibly give it some more visually different gear down the road. Also, I don't see a lack of representation in past games as a real detriment, I mean AST only has one previous incarnation with FF Tactics and yet it is in XIV. Though one can argue AST takes a few things from Time Mage and Gambler, who have been in A LOT of FF games. But that's a slippery slope in the long run. I think if retooled a lot, Ravager could be another viable idea for a offensive brutal tank but that may be a stretch. There are ideas out there but true, none really carry that impact like SAM would. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Shippuu]

Thing is, overlap is bound to happen, while WAR would share visible traits with Viking, I believe they would make Viking stand out with it's playstyle and possibly give it some more visually different gear down the road. Also, I don't see a lack of representation in past games as a real detriment, I mean AST only has one previous incarnation with FF Tactics and yet it is in XIV. Though one can argue AST takes a few things from Time Mage and Gambler, who have been in A LOT of FF games. But that's a slippery slope in the long run. I think if retooled a lot, Ravager could be another viable idea for a offensive brutal tank but that may be a stretch. There are ideas out there but true, none really carry that impact like SAM would. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Naturally overlapping will happen to a degree, but ideally you'd want to try and avoid that if you could, unless it's something that you know would have a big appeal. Viking on it's own just doesn't quite have that pizzazz with Warrior kind of lifting a lot of your iconic viking tropes. It'd be different if Warrior hadn't gone the route of barbarian in FFXIV for sure. Samurai has some overlap with Dark Knight in a very small way in that they both have 2 handed swords, but if they go the regular Katana route, and not the Great Katana route then it would be used in a significantly different way, on top of their iconic armor being pretty contrasting to WAR/PLD/DRK in overall appearance. Viking (and even beastmaster) would have a lot of armor appeal overlap even though they could use more different weapons. (If we got Viking I'd prefer it to dual-wield axes tbh) It's a tricky situation either way.

But yes, AST incorporates themes/abilities from other jobs. Healers are a whole other issue though, as they are practically even more stressed for viable job options than tanks in my opinion. I feel we'll see the most innovation in terms of job design/imagery for healers than any other role because of this, there just isn't a whole lot of healer like jobs that aren't super similar in past FF games.

[StarRosie]

Naturally overlapping will happen to a degree, but ideally you'd want to try and avoid that if you could, unless it's something that you know would have a big appeal. Viking on it's own just doesn't quite have that pizzazz with Warrior kind of lifting a lot of your iconic viking tropes. It'd be different if Warrior hadn't gone the route of barbarian in FFXIV for sure. Samurai has some overlap with Dark Knight in a very small way in that they both have 2 handed swords, but if they go the regular Katana route, and not the Great Katana route then it would be used in a significantly different way, on top of their iconic armor being pretty contrasting to WAR/PLD/DRK in overall appearance. Viking (and even beastmaster) would have a lot of armor appeal overlap even though they could use more different weapons. (If we got Viking I'd prefer it to dual-wield axes tbh) It's a tricky situation either way.

Agreed, It's tricky all around and a rather delicate balance but I think the Twin Axes you mention would help stand VIK apart from WAR but to really have them play nice, the design team would have to put some serious effort into things. But...then again they don't seem to mind overlap much, I mean look at gear for MNK and NIN, they are usually just simple color swaps save for their respective Job gear. I also think SE knows they can't fit everyone into the game, so they do some job mixing here and there and that's why we have this kind of overlap with WAR and VIK.

I don't know what I would prefer more for SAM, on one hand, Great Katana is just badass and you could probably squeak out a decent Auron cosplay out of it, but on the other, there is more speed and possible interesting ideas with the regular sized Katana, even if they just give it one to work with. Plus SAM has a lot of interesting designs to pull from besides the classic armor with the Kabuto helm. (I really hope at least one SAM set has something like Yojimbo's hat from FFX.) Either way, we'll have to wait and see what their plans are. Either way, tank or DPS, I'll play SAM. You know my preference and I sure know your preference.

Anyways, it's late. I probably won't get back to any replies for hours. Have a good evening.

[GMERC]

(If we got Viking I'd prefer it to dual-wield axes tbh)

Why? Did you have a better suggestion for a job to use Hammers/Maces? Because I can't say I know of any known for using them. Kind of seems like a waste to opt for dual wielding hand axes on a tank, doesn't it? When we have perfectly good shield models only being used by one job (with only a small handful actually being truly specific to Paladin)?

Healers are a whole other issue though, as they are practically even more stressed for viable job options than tanks in my opinion.

Pretty much. Which is why unfortunately we're more likely to get Red Mage as a Healer than we are to get them as a proper caster (with some manner of close quarters fighter being about equally likely as getting them as a Healer). After that? Kind of a weirder spot, and all you can really do is take a vaguely magically oriented job from someplace in the series' history and kinda convert it into being a healer (Astrologian being Literally Time Mage meets Oracle borrowing the name from Astrologer). I'd actually be inclined to say Bard would have been an excellent choice had they not kinda blown their load on that in 1.x assigning it to the Archer that was a shoe-in for becoming Ranger. Bishop barely qualifies as recurring and is sort of unremarkable unless you look at Bravely Second's take on it. In short, it's a mess, and as much as I wouldn't want it, they might have to opt for Red Mage in the healer role and bite the bullet and do some manner of Chemist later down the line. But oh well, there's always Green Mage, which is largely a blank slate outside of a small number of buffs in the Green Magic kit not being simple stuff other jobs have used time and again (Bubble and Oil come to mind).

I doubt they'd try and justify using Sage, but it's also an option.

[Katana190]

snip.

I don't think RDM will be healer but I've seen a lot of people with your same opinion so I would say its not a bad guess. We'll be finding out tomorrow night though!

But DPS already have two eastern themed jobs!

Tanks(or healers) should get SAM just to even that out. /eyeroll

I mean, its as bad as the Sword argument, I've seen them both used quite a bit and it is just a bit silly really.
But both arguments can be won at the same time if RDM is DPS and SAM is tank.

Best bet is like I said just wait till tomorrow night, if RDM is announced as a DPS I strongly believe SAM will be a tank, providing it gets teased, if RDM is announced healer though.. I don't want it but SAM might end up with the DPS slot and Tanks would get the original job if they do that again and if you count AST as an original.

[Shippuu]

Why? Did you have a better suggestion for a job to use Hammers/Maces? Because I can't say I know of any known for using them. Kind of seems like a waste to opt for dual wielding hand axes on a tank, doesn't it? When we have perfectly good shield models only being used by one job (with only a small handful actually being truly specific to Paladin)?

No, I don't particularly have a better suggestion for a job to use hammers/maces, partially because I don't really see them as being a necessary addition to the game. Many games don't use Hammers for their classes, and there isn't particularly a defacto hammer wielding job in Final Fantasy games. I just don't see how hammer = viking, who in my opinion are more known for axes than anything else. But I suppose the whole mjolnir+thunder aspect has some appeal. If I had to give a tank job a hammer, I'd probably give it to Judgemaster.

I'd opt for them to dual wield because if they're to be a tank it would certainly be something we don't have as a tank yet. I'd rather avoid any job actually using the actual same weapon/offhand as another job. Why must PLD share their shields? That's like saying we have all these perfectly good spear models only being used by one job, or all these bow models, etc. etc. People often jump all over SAM not being a tank cause it uses another sword etc. but katanas are usually always their own classification of weapon in Final Fantasy games anyways and would be used different than the massive slabs of metal that are DRK greatswords. A shield + 1h weapon is a bit harder to make more unique attacking animations for if you have 2 jobs using them. If Viking's were to have shields, I'd rather them then have a shield + spear if anything.