@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[Shippuu]

But adding more tank classes will not fix the stigma around tanking. It will not make more people wanna be tanks. It will just give the current tank pool more toys to play with.

I'm pointing this out and bolding for emphasis. This right here, is absolutely the only reason needed to justify adding another Tank class to this game. That's it, that's all that needs to be said for it to be a good decision. Because this is exactly what adding any job really breaks down to, simply adding more variety for existing players.

People like to come into these kinds of threads, and act like if a new Tank job doesn't magically fix the stigma of tanking that has plagued trinity MMO's since existence, then it isn't worth adding. Which is complete and utter BS, you won't see them applying those same "must fix something" standard to adding DPS roles.

Here's the thing about adding new tank jobs, it provides a multitude of benefits, while offering no actual real downsides in and of itself. Whereas NOT adding new tank jobs offer plenty of short and longterm negative effects. Some pros to adding new tank jobs are things like a potential to increase tank populations temporarily and/or longterm. Revitalizes queues as new and existing tank players are now participating in lower/leveling content. Can bring returning tank players back to the game. Gives existing tank players fresh variety to keep them playing etc. Some cons of NOT adding new tank jobs are things like existing tank players getting bored of their current variety and leaving, reducing tank numbers even more. Attracting tank players away from their role towards freshly released DPS jobs which tips the balance further into tanks being even more in demand, this is particularly bad at the release of an expansion, where you want returning/new purchasers to get good impressions of the game, waiting in inflated queues hurts this impression negatively.

People say that only tank players like playing tanks but that is absolutely demonstrably un-true. I personally have witnessed many people who were "career" DPS who were tempted by Dark Knight's addition to try tanking and found they loved it. My own experience is of the same vein, many years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of playing as a tank but now it's obviously my preferred role. While these are anecdotal evidence, one merely needs to check forums and places like reddit where every week there's usually someone dipping their toe into tanking and asking questions, the majority of said threads are straight up because of Dark Knight. This is a perfect example of why adding new tank jobs that are also popular and appealing concepts/archetypes/etc. is nothing but a good thing.

[Korbash]

Because this is exactly what adding any job really breaks down to, simply adding more variety for existing players.

The same thing can be said about adding more magic DPS jobs, which is really needed because with just 2 jobs there is no variety at all. Only having 2 magic DPS jobs is unfair while everyone else has more. What we need is to have more magic DPS jobs.

[Shippuu]

The same thing can be said about adding more magic DPS jobs, which is really needed because with just 2 jobs there is no variety at all. Only having 2 magic DPS jobs is unfair while everyone else has more. What we need is to have more magic DPS jobs.

As I've stated before, the negative effects of not adding new specific types of DPS is far less harmful to the health of the game than tanks or healers. Besides that, you nit-pick what counts as a magic job, disregarding two entire jobs that fundamentally play like magic casters only because they aren't fitting your specific idea of a magic job is. I'm sure you'd find some reason to discount Red Mage as a magic job if it is added as a DPS that does attacks in melee range too. Even then, if you enjoy sitting back and casting spells with cast-bars, you have 7 jobs to choose from, regardless if they're DoM or DoW. That's currently over half the jobs in the game.

[Korbash]

As I've stated before, the negative effects of not adding new specific types of DPS is far less harmful to the health of the game than tanks or healers. Besides that, you nit-pick what counts as a magic job, disregarding two entire jobs that fundamentally play like magic casters only because they aren't fitting your specific idea of a magic job is. I'm sure you'd find some reason to discount Red Mage as a magic job if it is added as a DPS that does attacks in melee range too. Even then, if you enjoy sitting back and casting spells with cast-bars, you have 7 jobs to choose from, regardless if they're DoM or DoW. That's currently over half the jobs in the game.

First, Bard and Machinist are not mage, they don't use magic at all, and they're part of the Disciples of War. I play them myself. Just because the devs added in the expansion The Wanderer's Minuet to Bard and that Machinist has Gauss Barrel that doesn't turn them into Disciples of Magic at all.

And just because I prefer playing at range doesn't mean I never play melee range. I also play Ninja, Warrior and Dragoon here. In Guild Wars I had a N/W (Necromancer / Warrior) where I had fun going melee with mobs with a big sword and a shield and siphon them with Blood magic. I did the same thing in Warhammer Online, don't remember the class, where I was siphoning mobs with magic and bashing them with a sword.

In other words, I don't care if magic classes are range or melee, I will play them anyway. If Red Mage is melee then I'Ll play it melee.

And when I leveled up my Warrior, my tank job, I did not do it for the community at all or because I want to switch to it and make it my main, I did it to help out my guild or my friends when a tank is necessary. My main has not changed at all. That has been helpful when I was in a group farming Ifrit Exreme for the mount and we could not get a tank so I switch to my Warrior.

[Shippuu]

First, Bard and Machinist are not mage, they don't use magic at all, and they're part of the Disciples of War. I play them myself. Just because the devs added in the expansion The Wanderer's Minuet to Bard and that Machinist has Gauss Barrel that doesn't turn them into Disciples of Magic at all.

Arguably Bard and Machinists are indeed mages by multiple definitions. In game, they absolutely are in the form their gameplay mechanics are cast times. From a thematic theme they are as well, you think Bard songs aren't a form of magic? Or how about when they rain down a volley of brightly colored darts? That's not magic? And Machinist's by their very lore, use the aetherotransformer to convert their body's aether into lightning aspected aether that powers their gun and tech.
All you're doing is playing semantics here. You're nit-picking for the sake of nit-picking because you choose not to accept the notion so you can push your agenda. You're ignoring jobs that play and act like mages just because their title says Disciple of War, and not Disciple of Magic which is just silly.

Even then, the addition (or lack of) for Mages is highly irrelevant to this topic.

[StarRosie]

Snip.

I agree, to a point. Having variety is a key thing to keep the players happy, adding more tanks and healers would do that. But, the variety argument can go both ways. What fresh variety does SAM bring to tanking? Yes, sure I've seen you list off SAM's several defensive abilities through the FF series but that doesn't account for the several signature offensive abilities it has that equally argue for it to be a DPS. Heck it could be a pseudo OT like DRG is sometimes in dungeons. If we want variety, lets bring something like Viking in, or Rune Knight, maybe something like Beastmaster where the tamed beast does the tanking, or heck something out of left field like a complete magic user tank. That would be variety, that would be fresh, that would keep things interesting, but adding another sword tank? Would only alleviate the problem temporarily.

Some cons of NOT adding new tank jobs are things like existing tank players getting bored of their current variety and leaving, reducing tank numbers even more.

Again, I disagree with this argument, if this is such an issue, adding new tank jobs would be mandatory every expansion in order to keep the tanking community entertained. If the tanking community is so easily bored, that if they don't get regular content they'll quit tanking or something, then that means there is a problem with the tanking playstyle! Not the amount of jobs within the role. And trust me, there is stuff in the tanking playstyle that should be addressed, I mean...when do you ever use the tank LB? I think there is one fight in the whole game where the Tank LB is mandatory. Could be wrong.

I get what you are trying to say and agree, heck I wholly agree with your last paragraph, I am maxing WAR, my first tank class and I have been having a hecking good time. But by going through this process, I see some of the issues tanking has and why, yes, some people are spooked by tanking. So instead of pumping a bunch of new tank jobs into the game to keep the tank pool satiated, and maybe get a few people to pick a tank class up as an offspec. How about we address and attack the issue that keeps people from trying tanking instead? Again, I'm all for new tank jobs, but I don't think SAM would be a good choice for one and that is my opinion on the matter.

[EdwinLi]

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I agree that if the only thing keeping people playing a tank job is introducing a new Tank Job every expansion then there really is something wrong with the gameplay style.

Also, as much as easy it is to just put another Sword Job as a Tank Job with some basic mechanic like Parry every single attack it does also get very bland to a point that everything Tank is a Sword user Job with main Tnakish focus being Heavy Armor with only Warrior giving a different type of weapon for a slightly different experience. If the only thing keeping players to play Tank Jobs is the thrill of playing as some person with a Sword then the entire concept of playing as a Tank in ths game is wrong and needs to be reworked to actually feel the enjoyment of playing as a Tank Job and not some Vanity experience of some guy with a sword for everything not Group content then only to just drop playing as a Tank because they don't want to deal with the responsibilities of the Tank Role for group content.

There are plenty of players playing Tank jobs but they're not playing it for Group content and only use the Tank job for Vanity through nongroup contents.

[Anzaman]

There are plenty of players playing Tank jobs but they're not playing it for Group content and only use the Tank job for Vanity through nongroup contents.

Pretty much; I have tank and healer leveled and geared up, but I'm "only" using them when doing stuff with Free Company if no other member is available for it.

Or when I'm hunting for specific glamour items from for example Crystal Tower.

[Shippuu]

I agree, to a point. Having variety is a key thing to keep the players happy, adding more tanks and healers would do that. But, the variety argument can go both ways. What fresh variety does SAM bring to tanking? Yes, sure I've seen you list off SAM's several defensive abilities through the FF series but that doesn't account for the several signature offensive abilities it has that equally argue for it to be a DPS.

What variety would it bring DPS? The argument can go both ways.

Dark Knight's were known for sacrificing their HP to do big numbers, yet are still a tank. Samurai's in Final Fantasy games are notorious for having moves that can instantly kill enemies that attributes to the notion they're strong attackers, but such an ability cannot translate accurately into an MMO at all, it would be absolutely broken. In many games the Samurai character is no stronger (and sometimes weaker stat-wise) than the Knight class.

As I've said before, there is little need to argue for a job to be a DPS because everything can be a DPS from a design standpoint. It's the default option, everything does damage. But few things can be potential tanks if they're intent on tanks being these heavy armored assaulters. Removing a strong candidate from that miniscule pool is a bad idea.

Heck it could be a pseudo OT like DRG is sometimes in dungeons. If we want variety, lets bring something like Viking in, or Rune Knight, maybe something like Beastmaster where the tamed beast does the tanking, or heck something out of left field like a complete magic user tank. That would be variety, that would be fresh, that would keep things interesting, but adding another sword tank? Would only alleviate the problem temporarily.

Just because you don't consider Samurai to bring variety does not mean it doesn't. To me, Viking is a poor man's Warrior, what variety would it possibly bring when Warrior has absorbed most of it's identity and abilities? Rune Knight by it's very name is less variety since we already have 2 knights, on top of it using weapons far more similar to the existing tanks than even Samurai (which is often a major complaint against Samurai being a tank). Beastmaster could work but the pet cannot tank for a huge number of reasons I've explained elsewhere, the only viable way it would work is if the pet is highly disposable and likely constantly re-summoned making it no different than MCH turrets and that's a bad way to go for something called a Beastmaster. Beastmaster is something that sounds neat on paper but realistically from a design standpoint is a developmental nightmare. 2 of the 3 tanks also have magic leaning identities, so a Rune Knight or magic-themed tank is also even more overlap. Dark Knight is already very much a magic user tank, their entire mechanic is managing their MP pool far more than even DoM jobs have to do.

You are going to sit here though, and argue that Rune Knight, Viking, etc. which have appeared in only a few titles and rarely recurring, come anywhere close to the overall popularity and appeal that Samurai brings through look and name alone? You think those alternatives can honestly hold a candle against that? They cannot. Samurai is generally the most requested job to be added to this game. Just because you don't consider Samurai to be adding variety doesn't mean it isn't, that's just your opinion. SE could design the job to play in any way they chose with any number of mechanics that would seperate it from the others.

Again, I disagree with this argument, if this is such an issue, adding new tank jobs would be mandatory every expansion in order to keep the tanking community entertained. If the tanking community is so easily bored, that if they don't get regular content they'll quit tanking or something, then that means there is a problem with the tanking playstyle! Not the amount of jobs within the role. And trust me, there is stuff in the tanking playstyle that should be addressed, I mean...when do you ever use the tank LB? I think there is one fight in the whole game where the Tank LB is mandatory. Could be wrong.

If the devs are intent on adding multiple jobs each expansion, then yes, they should be adding 1 of each role, period. Just like someone else tried to say in this thread, how does being stuck with the same jobs for 4 years and getting fed up and quitting any semblance of being "easily bored"? The tanking role is often seen as more demanding, so yes, those players should be thrown a bone because the trinity system relies on the pillars of tanks and healers to keep content going. Other issues such as not being able to use their LB are irrelevant to adding new jobs to the game.

So instead of pumping a bunch of new tank jobs into the game to keep the tank pool satiated, and maybe get a few people to pick a tank class up as an offspec. How about we address and attack the issue that keeps people from trying tanking instead? Again, I'm all for new tank jobs, but I don't think SAM would be a good choice for one and that is my opinion on the matter.

Why can it not be both? Just because there is a problem with with tanking in general across multiple games does not mean people who play that role don't deserve variety and new things to occupy their time. To be blunt, they often deserve it more, which isn't fair but likely necessary. There does indeed need to be strong incentives in game to push people to trying/playing tanks, but that's a seperate issue and should not affect the decision on adding new tank jobs.

[EdwinLi]

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Really in the end it more of the question if SAM as a Tank is enough to actually get people to play a Tank job Role in Group content.

We have plenty of people playing Tank Jobs now but it is for non-group content because they only want to play the Tank Job for Vanity sake.

One can argue in the short run of maybe 2 or 4 months there is a increase in Tank Queue time for Group content and a decrease in DPS time for Group content but it comes down to where that decrease/increase is affecting the game.


If it is endgame stuff then introducing SAM as a Tank Job was a success but if that effect is only for leveling content then it has not actually affected Tank Job Role as planned since leveling content often ends with the player dropping that Tank Job for max level group content thus the queue has not changed for the Max level content which is what most people wishing for SAM Tank would fix by increasing the Max level content population for Tank Jobs. Better queues for leveling contents is fine but the true aim for introducing new Tank Job will certainly focus more towards how the endgame is affected.

Either way SE certainly have their work cutout for them no matter which Job becomes a Tank in 4.0 since they have to start looking beyond Sword user Jobs for future Expansion Tank Jobs if they don't want their development team to be questioned with their "creative ability" when it comes to developing new Jobs.