@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

No thanks, Samurai dps, red mage tank.

[shao32]

snip

in every ff game DRK was a first line soldier wearing heavy armor and sacrifice hp to increse the power of the next attack, something DRK do here but using MP instead, many ppl expect DRK be a dps for that, but the fact DRK never was a top dps so is pretty logic they choose the job for a tank spot and make they dont kill herself in the process more when cecil the iconic DRK pass they drk part of the story protecting other party members how dealt much more damage that hem, except the bard, even if DRK was a dps they still using mp instead of hp.

[Shippuu]

No thanks, Samurai dps, red mage tank.

So what gear is Red Mage gonna wear? Because part of the design decisions by SE is that tanks share gear which offers the benefit of being able to switch between any of the 3 tanks whenever needed, encouraging people to play those jobs for ease of gearing alone (3 for the price of 1 etc.) Is it going to wear it's own unique tier of armor? Not only would that pollute the loot pools even more than they already are, but SE already re-uses a ton of assets across the role armor, making a new tier of armor just for 1 job is a lot of extra work. If those aren't the options, then what, it's going to share gear with a DPS job? You think it's a good idea for tanks and dps to compete for gear? And if that's not going to happen, then what, RDM is going to wear the heaviest armor in the game which would be a pretty big visual step away from how it's usually always depicted?

Things that need to be considered.

[FinalWolf]

So what gear is Red Mage gonna wear? Because part of the design decisions by SE is that tanks share gear which offers the benefit of being able to switch between any of the 3 tanks whenever needed, encouraging people to play those jobs for ease of gearing alone (3 for the price of 1 etc.) Is it going to wear it's own unique tier of armor? Not only would that pollute the loot pools even more than they already are, but SE already re-uses a ton of assets across the role armor, making a new tier of armor just for 1 job is a lot of extra work. If those aren't the options, then what, it's going to share gear with a DPS job? You think it's a good idea for tanks and dps to compete for gear? And if that's not going to happen, then what, RDM is going to wear the heaviest armor in the game which would be a pretty big visual step away from how it's usually always depicted?

Things that need to be considered.

but muh anime 1000 folded dps sword

[Wolf_Heartnet]

So what gear is Red Mage gonna wear? Because part of the design decisions by SE is that tanks share gear which offers the benefit of being able to switch between any of the 3 tanks whenever needed, encouraging people to play those jobs for ease of gearing alone (3 for the price of 1 etc.) Is it going to wear it's own unique tier of armor? Not only would that pollute the loot pools even more than they already are, but SE already re-uses a ton of assets across the role armor, making a new tier of armor just for 1 job is a lot of extra work. If those aren't the options, then what, it's going to share gear with a DPS job? You think it's a good idea for tanks and dps to compete for gear? And if that's not going to happen, then what, RDM is going to wear the heaviest armor in the game which would be a pretty big visual step away from how it's usually always depicted?

Things that need to be considered.

Well, i believe Red Mage will be a healer but i will say this. If Red Mage were to be made into a tank, it doesn't necessarily need it's own gear. It completely depends on how the design for the job is done. They can make all the Red Mage spells scale off of Vit or Det or Strength or Parry etc instead of intelligence/mind. Wouldn't make much sense but it can be done.

For armor designs everyone is pretty much a visual step away from how they are depicted because the artifact armor aren't what everyone wears and even then, with glamours there are dark knights wearing swim trunks or bikinis. Most importantly there is a set of tank gear that looks like something a Red Mage would wear which is Sharlayan Custodian's armor set.

[CaedemSanguis]

SAM dps and RDM tank with heavy armor

[Shippuu]

Well, i believe Red Mage will be a healer but i will say this. If Red Mage were to be made into a tank, it doesn't necessarily need it's own gear. It completely depends on how the design for the job is done. They can make all the Red Mage spells scale off of Vit or Det or Strength or Parry etc instead of intelligence/mind. Wouldn't make much sense but it can be done.

For armor designs everyone is pretty much a visual step away from how they are depicted because the artifact armor aren't what everyone wears and even then, with glamours there are dark knights wearing swim trunks or bikinis. Most importantly there is a set of tank gear that looks like something a Red Mage would wear which is Sharlayan Custodian's armor set.

"Glamour" is not a valid excuse. And a single armor set, from a dungeon where every job has the same appearance of the armor just palette swapped is a very bad example, especially when the same could be said about SAM tank and the Yasha/Asuran Fending armor (Which wasn't a universally used appearance like the Sharlayan stuff from the Library.)


Red Mage seems an obvious choice for a DPS that would use DEX gear. There are far more sets from that category of armor that would fit them far better, as well as a dex making more sense as a stat for them than VIT+STR.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

"Glamour" is not a valid excuse. And a single armor set, from a dungeon where every job has the same appearance of the armor just palette swapped is a very bad example, especially when the same could be said about SAM tank and the Yasha/Asuran Fending armor (Which wasn't a universally used appearance like the Sharlayan stuff from the Library.)


Red Mage seems an obvious choice for a DPS that would use DEX gear. There are far more sets from that category of armor that would fit them far better, as well as a dex making more sense as a stat for them than VIT+STR.

Saying that glamour is not a valid excuse is DEFINITELY not a valid excuse. Especially since you do not even explain yourself regarding that. So that argument alone has been made automatically invalid. The reason for the 170 tank gear looking the way it is, is because in development for heavensward, their decision for the next tank came down to Dark Knight or Samurai. It wouldn't surprise me that they had already made gear ahead of time for the samurai.

And while Bard/Machinist has some sets that are similar to Red Mage it doesn't neccesarily make as much sense for a caster to be a dex class. Like i said, it makes more sense for it to be a healer because it could use white magic to heal and then go into cleric stance to use black magic. It just makes more sense.

[Shippuu]

Saying that glamour is not a valid excuse is DEFINITELY not a valid excuse. Especially since you do not even explain yourself regarding that. So that argument alone has been made automatically invalid.

It's not valid because the glamour system is still restricted by role/job. If you're a tank you can't glamour bard gear onto your stuff. You can't be a mage and glamour a full set of plate armor onto yourself. So the job's basic armor identity still plays an important role. Just because there's a number of universally glamour-able items such as swimsuits etc. does not invalidate that.

The reason for the 170 tank gear looking the way it is, is because in development for heavensward, their decision for the next tank came down to Dark Knight or Samurai. It wouldn't surprise me that they had already made gear ahead of time for the samurai.

And that's simply speculation. We don't know how far along they went with samurai in development and in terms of creating art assets.

And while Bard/Machinist has some sets that are similar to Red Mage it doesn't neccesarily make as much sense for a caster to be a dex class. Like i said, it makes more sense for it to be a healer because it could use white magic to heal and then go into cleric stance to use black magic. It just makes more sense.

It makes plenty of sense, Red mages cast multiple types of magics from different schools on top of weaving in swordplay. That takes a dexterous mind as well as body to perform. Dexterous doesn't apply to just physical feats after all, someone with a dexterous mind is considered clever, and mentally adroit. It's much like Ninja's, who use dex as their primary stat, yet the class has many forms of magical abilities it casts through dexterous hand movements.

White Magic also does not equal only healing magic. There are numerous White Magic spells that are enfeebling or protective without being purely healing. Poisona, Blindna, Invis, Silence, Hold, Confuse, Blink, Haste, Dispel. Even if you wanted to give a DPS role some kind of healing it can still be done on RDM, something like an instant cast medica on a longer cooldown would still align with support-like moves other DPS jobs have like Mantra etc.

If Red Mage was a healer it would spend most of it's time healing, and a little time casting black magic, and virtually zero time using the sword element that it's often tied to. DPS would allow it to use all of them (as well as tank, but that brings itemization issues).

[Wolf_Heartnet]

It's not valid because the glamour system is still restricted by role/job. If you're a tank you can't glamour bard gear onto your stuff. You can't be a mage and glamour a full set of plate armor onto yourself. So the job's basic armor identity still plays an important role. Just because there's a number of universally glamour-able items such as swimsuits etc. does not invalidate that.


And that's simply speculation. We don't know how far along they went with samurai in development and in terms of creating art assets.



It makes plenty of sense, Red mages cast multiple types of magics from different schools on top of weaving in swordplay. That takes a dexterous mind as well as body to perform. Dexterous doesn't apply to just physical feats after all, someone with a dexterous mind is considered clever, and mentally adroit. It's much like Ninja's, who use dex as their primary stat, yet the class has many forms of magical abilities it casts through dexterous hand movements.

White Magic also does not equal only healing magic. There are numerous White Magic spells that are enfeebling or protective without being purely healing. Poisona, Blindna, Invis, Silence, Hold, Confuse, Blink, Haste, Dispel. Even if you wanted to give a DPS role some kind of healing it can still be done on RDM, something like an instant cast medica on a longer cooldown would still align with support-like moves other DPS jobs have like Mantra etc.

If Red Mage was a healer it would spend most of it's time healing, and a little time casting black magic, and virtually zero time using the sword element that it's often tied to. DPS would allow it to use all of them (as well as tank, but that brings itemization issues).

Thanks for explaining with glamour but i still disagree. Even if you're a tank, you can glamour gear that can be worn by all that doesn't look like tank gear. In fact, you can be naked by glamouring the emperor gear. However, i can agree to disagree with you here.

For the 170 gear, that is speculation but there is also fact in that Samurai was close to becoming a tank in heavensward during development. But its true, theres no hard evidence that 170 was made because of Samurai.

Now, the way you describe Red Mage as a dps is a great argument. Best i've heard but when you talk about dextrous body and mind it sounds more like background lore or concepts that doesn't actually affect gameplay directly but i guess thats where both our arguments collide because i am thinking strictly from a gameplay perspective.

The key thing that i think about red mage is that they are going to have healing magic such as the iconic cure 1 and cure 2 along with lightning, fire 1, fire 2 and when thinking about it in a gameplay perspective... DPS simply cannot deliver heals because then they are losing out on dps in raids/hard-content. It would also sound like the job would be too powerful if the heals were so strong/effective that they can maintain high dps while healing. That would mean that MANY people would take groups of multiple red mages. To top it off it is called a mage.

If the Red Mage were not given any healing skills and just support magics like poison, blind, silence, haste, confuse, blink then what you got there is a Green Mage which is strictly a support magic caster. The way i see Red Mage is that it has to use White Mage skills and Black Mage skils. Also, whats to say they are actually going to use their sword/rapier? They can simply use it like a white/black mage uses their rod and just attack/heal from a range.

All that said, I like your argument. It is a good one. I however believe that it will still be a healer.