For stormblood do you want the gated conten path of hw, or the free roam path of arr?

[Chalbee]

Lore-wise, a lot of magic was deemed forbidden, thanks to calamities and magic's misuses that brought them on. Even non- magical classes, like dark knight, were mercilessly hunted down for story's own purpose. (The first dark knight slayed a member of the church to defend the innocent; considering Ishgard was originally a member of the Eorzean Alliance, the city-states would be more inclined to listen to the Holy See than a seemingly murderous knight).

With regards to the extra jobs (snip for length) The jobs being locked behind the expansion is frustrating, I agree. But I can see why from a lore-standpoint. And yes, there is probably a money-making standpoint behind gating them as well. For 4.0, if they could not tie in the additional jobs with the story behind Ala Mhigo, or have them make reference to 3.x events, it would make sense for them to be completely ungated. But SE has already set a precedent here, and they tend to stick to their current formulas.

The point I’m trying to make, though is that these are all conscious decisions. For example, they didn’t have to make Dark Knights fill the lore role that they do, they could have plopped them in Gridania and said they practice some ancient Gelmorran swordcraft or whatever. On account of the whole game being a work of fiction, there is nothing a priori that says jobs have to tie into the lore of an expansion area. SE decided that Dark Knights are an Ishgard thing, but they aren’t an Ishgard thing by default.

While we can’t be undo that decision for HW’s jobs, any new jobs in 4.0. don’t have to follow the same path. The devs write the lore for the jobs just as much as they write the lore for the MSQ, so they are more than capable of writing MSQ-independent lore for new jobs.

[JunseiKei]

The point I’m trying to make, though is that these are all conscious decisions. For example, they didn’t have to make Dark Knights fill the lore role that they do, they could have plopped them in Gridania and said they practice some ancient Gelmorran swordcraft or whatever. On account of the whole game being a work of fiction, there is nothing a priori that says jobs have to tie into the lore of an expansion area. SE decided that Dark Knights are an Ishgard thing, but they aren’t an Ishgard thing by default.

While we can’t be undo that decision for HW’s jobs, any new jobs in 4.0. don’t have to follow the same path. The devs write the lore for the jobs just as much as they write the lore for the MSQ, so they are more than capable of writing MSQ-independent lore for new jobs.

The few Gelmorran left are generally the Duskwright, which are met with high distrust in Gridania even now. Those that left Gelmorra founded Gridania after winning/earning a place in the Black Shroud through the elementals. The first dark knight was Ser Toriphaniel, a lowborn of Ishgard that earned nobility rank through acts and ultimately lost it willingly to defend the innocent. The class was written to be placed within Heavensward, seeing how much they purposely tied it to the Holy See of Ishgard.

I understand what you're saying, but it also raises the question, then, of why haven't we seen ___ around? At least certain classes, like white mage, are the way they are because outsiders simply aren't allowed to practice it. The WoL is a special case, but generally only the Padjal can be white mages. As it is, we've seen Ilberd and Raubahn was some magic- like abilities with swords; pretty sure they are some sort of red mage and they hail from Ala Mhigo. Taking past lore into account, people became fearful of magic, more than once, because it generally ushered in the calamities. Scholars and practitioners were put to the sword, making much of the arts lost to time- or practiced secretly in few places.

[HyoMinPark]

My argument in using FFXI is that the only zones that were ever gated are those that require story progression and in most cases, were candidates for end-game zones. Things like Sky and Sea required you to do the story and I am perfectly fine with that. Outside of that, though, you can still go to Whitegate, Adoulin, the Past and Norg at any time (the main requirement usually being a quest unrelated to the story) and explore most of their zones. This meant you were free to unlock the new Jobs as they came out, without needing to be level 50 first (you did need to be level 30+ on your current Job, though).

Ah, so you're more so on about how it's okay to gate higher-level/endgame areas behind the story, not gating other content (new jobs, quests, etc.) behind expansions or story, right? Since you mention being able to unlock the new jobs in each of the FFXI expansions? If I'm understanding correctly, that's a pretty valid concern. I know I'd love to jump right into level DRK on my alt without having to wait to finish 2.0 and 2.x, but I can understand the gating from a lore standpoint. Perhaps that's something devs can consider in the future: not gating extra jobs behind expansions.

While we can’t be undo that decision for HW’s jobs, any new jobs in 4.0. don’t have to follow the same path. The devs write the lore for the jobs just as much as they write the lore for the MSQ, so they are more than capable of writing MSQ-independent lore for new jobs.

Fair enough. I wouldn't mind if they make extra jobs in future expansions ungated. I can't remember, but I'm wanting to say it's already been determined that the 4.0 jobs are going to be locked behind the expansion, but perhaps the devs can consider moving away from this formula with future expansions, and doing like Nestama said was done in FFXI: where you could still unlock the new expansion's jobs so long as you were level 30+ on your current job. That would bring up the concern of which class/combination of classes the game required in order for you to unlock a new job, unless SE decided to just do "any class level 30 or higher" as the requisite for unlocking an extra job.

They wouldn't be able to base the jobs inside the expansion's zones though, unless they opened up the expansions to those that are still in ARR. Lots of things to consider, but I do hope it's something the devs take the time to do in the future. As I said before, there will come a time where it won't be plausible to continue locking each expansion behind the previous one in a linear fashion. Because it will just be a turn-off for newer players. When we will reach that point, though, I can't say.

[Chalbee]

The few Gelmorran left are generally the Duskwright, which are met with high distrust in Gridania even now....The first dark knight was Ser Toriphaniell...The class was written to be placed within Heavensward, seeing how much they purposely tied it to the Holy See of Ishgard.

Ser Toblerone or whateverthecrap was invented because that's how they wanted the lore to be. He doesn't actually exist, he's not real. The developers said "hey, let's tie this job's lore to Ishgard and we'll make this dude the very first one and throw in some stuff about the Holy See. Sounds good? Sounds good."

That in mind, they could (with new jobs) say "hey, let's not tie this new job's lore to Ala Mhigo. We'll make this dude in Gridania and he's the first guy to think of it or something. Sounds good? Sounds good."

Final point, if the devs wanted to say "hey turns out there is this one super extra speshul group of duskwights that keep X forbidden bad juju magic alive and they don't like to tell ppl about it, but you're the warrior of light, so they'll teach you" They can! Because they write the rules, and as long as it's internally consistent, that's all that matters.

[JunseiKei]

~snip~

True. However, they'd also lose an additional selling point to an expansion as well as bring content away from said expansion.

[Chalbee]

True. However, they'd also lose an additional selling point to an expansion as well as bring content away from said expansion.

How would they lose a selling point? They could still make owning the expansion required to unlock the job (like you have to have HW to play as Au Ra). MSQ, new dungeons, new raids, and new Primals would still be locked behind the expansion. This is what I meant earlier when I said it's not a zero-sum argument. It's not like a few concessions amount to scrapping story-based gameplay all together. It's not that HW had gating that's a problem, it's that HW had so much gated.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

It's not that HW had gating that's a problem, it's that HW had so much gated.

For every gate in HW, there is at least one gate in ARR. Changing class? Gated behind level 10 class quest. Leves in your hometown? Gated. Leves elsewhere? Gated. Travel to and from La Noscea? Gated. Mounts? Chocobo? Gated. Chocobo joining you in combat? Gated. 4? Of the 12 leveling dungeons in ARR were side quests, and thus only gated by character level. The other 8 were gated by MSQ as well as level. ALL of the level 50 dungeons are gated by character level, if not also by MSQ. PVP? Gated by character level. Getting a Job? GATED. Retainers? Gated.

Character level is a form of Gate. Even if you have it unlocked from another job, you are NOT getting into Wanderer's Palace with a level 45. For some reason though, it is the least referenced form of Gate in this entire thread, with the simple assumption that you are going to meet it. It is just as fair to assume people are going to make the MSQ Gates as it is to assume people are going to meet the class/job level Gates.

Ignoring that form of Gating, as well as assuming that one Gate is already passed, has led people to the erroneous conclusion that HW is more Gated than ARR. There were a lot more Gates in ARR.

[bswpayton]

For every gate in HW, there is at least one gate in ARR. Changing class? Gated behind level 10 class quest. Leves in your hometown? .

But where the zones gated after you reached level 15 no , did u have another zone gate once you hit level 35 nope you didnt , so to say that things are gated the same is just not true. What I meant by free roam is that you can go beyond any zone that your story quest was in and in arr you could.

In hw you can not , so even if you are level 15 in arr you can still go to mor dona, you can even piggy back off of friends if you chose to and grind higher level fats thats well above your level. So of course there is progression, to do certain things but to block an area off and to meet a level cap are two totally different things. So no arr is not the same as hw in this sense, because you cant leave your zone unless you are done with that part in msq that wasnt the case in arr. Like if you are level 45 you can still go do fates in a zone thats level 45 because its open, even if you are on your level 30 quest in msq.

If your gatherers are higher level than your battle class you can go anywhere in the zone and gather what you need. If you are level 55 in hw you will have to settle for whatever fate that is in the area unless you complete the msq ,these are two totally different things and lets not pretend like they are not arr is no where even close to being gated like hw is. In arr you could level every job to fifthy do all the optional dungeons, do any fate in arr content, do any hunt in arr zones, get any spoil nood that you want thats below level 50. You have access to any vender that has gear under 50 , when you get to hw the only way to do any of this is the msq and that is totally different than it was in arr

[Chalbee]

snip

Yes, ARR has a lot of gating, possibly even more (in terms of quantity). However, the jump from ARR to HW is jarring because the requirement to finish the ARR MSQ in it's entirety is a lot. Then, once you get into HW, there are still areas you just aren't allowed into without MSQ progression (something that ARR doesn't have). While it makes sense wrt the lore, my issue is that they wrote the lore like that to begin with.

Level gates aren't the same, because you can meet them in a variety of ways: Leves, FATES, side quests, main quests, dungeons, hunt log, challenge log... The HW gates are pretty much just MSQ, inflexible and absolute. Lvl 60 gatherer? Well, you can't get to that node because you haven't done the MSQ. Hell, they don't even let you fly in a zone without making you do the MSQ for aether currents. You can find all of the map ones you want, but if you haven't finished the MSQ in that area, no flying for you.

Regardless, though, it doesn't really matter does it? At the end of the day SE will do what SE will do. Many people will be just fine with them forcing the MSQ down our throats, others like myself will be irritated but most likely carry on...

[Dorander]

As it's been probably said, but bears repeating: FFXIV is a story based MMO. Everything of any worth is gated behind it. If it chafes that much, maybe this game isn't for you?