Recurring Theme On Specific Class Demands Per Content Because of Difficulty.

[Engineer]

If we're talking about Archer, it's the poor gameplay design that makes Archer unable to move during normal attacks that is the problem, not the fight itself.

Without that problem, you'd still do less DPS that a LNC, but you'd be as efficient as any other DD.

i just wish the community didnt have to feel the need to use all lancers to pass ifrit, or use archers and conjurers to pass dark hold.

Its the way the content and classes are designed why players react this way.

[Clydey]

lol irony 10char

What irony? You won't see anyone from BG bragging about 18 dps, assuming that's what you meant.

[Kinseykinz]

Actually, Ifrit would only require a small change to stop LNC spam: Increase the range of Sear to LNC's maximum attack range. Or, y'know, remove Sear entirely, but the first option is much more likely. If LNC had to deal with Sear damage like everyone else, they wouldn't be nearly as favored.

That one aspect aside, I rather like the mechanics to Ifrit. . .

...but if they increased 'Sears' range well then people would whine that you MUST have 2-3 healers along...so people would still say 'X class is favored.'


That said, I know you're more on my side of the fence...it just made me giggle when I read it

To those that want all event mobs/hardcore stuff to be class balanced: Unless you want every Mob to do similar damage and be more or less the same this is pretty much impossible. I mean even when I go out soloing as a CNJ vs soloing as GLA, there are different mobs each class kills better/worse. It's part of playing a video game...any video game. Different abilities/jobs/classes work better in different situations. So yes, there is an 'ideal' party set-up for Darkhold and for Ifrit right now BUT it is also completely possible, and not SOOO much harder, to do it with a different setup. No one is really left in the dark....some classes just have to work harder than others in certain fights. Down the road there WILL be mobs that PGL will EAT up, BLM will nuke the crap out of, PLD will tank like the pro he is. Everyone will get there battles...we just only have a handful to do right now and that's what makes people frustrated.

Lastly, I wouldn't pick on the 'Elite' LS's like BG too much....they spend a lot of time/energy trying to get first kill etc. They post the first solution they get to the puzzle...and WE choose to follow their solution, this doesn't mean that they don't say in there shells: 'Hey guys, now that we beat this dude, lets see how fast we can do it....now lets see what happens if we all go this class or try going one less healer etc. Nor do they come down to pick on our LS's way of doing things (at least on my server, the Elite shells are usually polite and let other shells do their thing unless they are asked for help/advice etc.). My point is this, there is no law that says once Linkshell A beats this NM all others MUST do it their way....or we shave your lala!

[Engineer]

...but if they increased 'Sears' range well then people would whine that you MUST have 2-3 healers along...so people would still say 'X class is favored.'


That said, I know you're more on my side of the fence...it just made me giggle when I read it

To those that want all event mobs/hardcore stuff to be class balanced: Unless you want every Mob to do similar damage and be more or less the same this is pretty much impossible. I mean even when I go out soloing as a CNJ vs soloing as GLA, there are different mobs each class kills better/worse. It's part of playing a video game...any video game. Different abilities/jobs/classes work better in different situations. So yes, there is an 'ideal' party set-up for Darkhold and for Ifrit right now BUT it is also completely possible, and not SOOO much harder, to do it with a different setup. No one is really left in the dark....some classes just have to work harder than others in certain fights. Down the road there WILL be mobs that PGL will EAT up, BLM will nuke the crap out of, PLD will tank like the pro he is. Everyone will get there battles...we just only have a handful to do right now and that's what makes people frustrated.

Lastly, I wouldn't pick on the 'Elite' LS's like BG too much....they spend a lot of time/energy trying to get first kill etc. They post the first solution they get to the puzzle...and WE choose to follow their solution, this doesn't mean that they don't say in there shells: 'Hey guys, now that we beat this dude, lets see how fast we can do it....now lets see what happens if we all go this class or try going one less healer etc. Nor do they come down to pick on our LS's way of doing things (at least on my server, the Elite shells are usually polite and let other shells do their thing unless they are asked for help/advice etc.). My point is this, there is no law that says once Linkshell A beats this NM all others MUST do it their way....or we shave your lala!

What I think would benefit this, is SE design the content to be passed with every class present in a party. I don't think SE does this since archer is a serious no go for ifrit.

[Viridiana]

...but if they increased 'Sears' range well then people would whine that you MUST have 2-3 healers along...so people would still say 'X class is favored.'


That said, I know you're more on my side of the fence...it just made me giggle when I read it

But no one's going to bring 6 healers instead of 6 lancers.

"Four White Mages? It'll never work."

[Rentahamster]

"Four White Mages? It'll never work."

It might work.

[Volsung]

Darkhold (at least before the recent patch) was doable with every class. We did it a multitude of times, with 0-1 archers, and either a mrd,gla, or pug tank. So at least in the past the need archer mentality was just that, a mentality.

With that said, things have changed since the last patch, I'm not sure where things stand on darkhold now..... since its drops are poop compared to materia gear.

With ifrit, I see sear as probably one of the biggest problems for pug and animation lock for arc. (though Ive done this fight and won with an archer buddy)

[Viridiana]

It might work.

>_>

yay10char

[Kiara]

To those that want all event mobs/hardcore stuff to be class balanced: Unless you want every Mob to do similar damage and be more or less the same this is pretty much impossible. I mean even when I go out soloing as a CNJ vs soloing as GLA, there are different mobs each class kills better/worse. It's part of playing a video game...any video game. Different abilities/jobs/classes work better in different situations. So yes, there is an 'ideal' party set-up for Darkhold and for Ifrit right now BUT it is also completely possible, and not SOOO much harder, to do it with a different setup. No one is really left in the dark....some classes just have to work harder than others in certain fights. Down the road there WILL be mobs that PGL will EAT up, BLM will nuke the crap out of, PLD will tank like the pro he is. Everyone will get there battles...we just only have a handful to do right now and that's what makes people frustrated.

Well said Kinsey.

It would be nice in an ideal world to have every single class *perfectly* balanced so that they all did the exact same damage, or were perfectly balanced to be equal in every single fight, but that's not going to happen.

I posted a similar idea awhile back:

As long as Square releases Dungeons / Raids / NMs that can be beaten by all classes - within an acceptable range of effort / skill (so average players in each class can clear it) - then it's OK to have some Content be more advantageous to use certain classes.

The key is that right now, Square doesn't have enough Max Level Content to provide that spectrum. If, by the time 2.0 rolls around, we had a variety of content like this:

• Dungeon 1: Has Encounters / Bosses that Archers / Bards are more advantageous at, BUT all Classes can overcome.

• Dungeon 2: Has Encounters / Bosses that Pugilists / Close-Range Melee are more advantageous at, BUT all Classes can overcome.

• Dungeon 3: Has Encounters / Bosses that favors Marauder Tanking, BUT all Classes can overcome.

• Dungeon 4: Has Encounters / Bosses that favors Gladiator Tanking, BUT all Classes can overcome.

• Dungeon 5: Has Encounters / Bosses that favors Conjurers, BUT all Classes can overcome.

• Dungeon 6: Has Encounters / Bosses that favors Thaumaturges, BUT all Classes can overcome.

etc.


Then I think we'd see less issues. There'd be content that would advantageous for each Class where they're "needed" more, or put in the spotlight, and that's OK.


The Community-side issues of "demanding" "Archer ONLY" or "Lancer ONLY" is a separate issue, but hopefully that can be improved with education (that those demanding only 1 setup can realize that it can be overcome with all Classes).


Look at one of the most demanding genres of games, where balance is always being sought after: Fighting Games.


Is every single Fighter in a roster "equally balanced"? No.


There are always Tier 1, 2, 3, etc. levels of characters in every fighting game, and the developers spend much of their time desperately trying to balance each fighter and they still have balance issues.


But people can still have fun and can skillfully use, say, T. Hawk, Blanka, Dhalsim, Sakura or Vega and still be competitive vs. Yun, Sagat, Fei Long or Ryu, etc. even though they aren't 100% equal or 100% balanced with each other.


I'd rather see Class Uniqueness and each of them have Advantages and Disadvantages than having SE try to achieve a 100% Perfect Balance / Equal Damage / Equal Heal / Equal Tank scenario, where every single DD class does the exact same amount of damage.

[Rentahamster]

I think most people recognize that "perfect" balance is nearly impossible and that certain classes will have unique traits that make them better suited for certain applications. However, the disparity in balance in the Ifrit and Darkhold fights were just waaaay too great.