Tomes vs random drops

[SpookyGhost]

People will, more often than not, prefer the tome system over random drops. This is largely because drops come from 3 places:

1.) Dungeons
2.) 24-man Raids
3.) 8-man Raids

2 out of the 3 of these are on a weekly lockout and the other is completely faceroll. RNG is no fun at all when the content itself isn't fun - you wouldn't want to run a dungeon over and over and over to get that one piece of loot you wanted because it would be a chore, which isn't how a game should be.

The content that works best atm is, imo, EX Primals. RNG system w/ tokens to circumvent RNG, extra fun loot, and fun fights (even if they've gotten quite dumbed down lately they're still fun mechanically). If dungeons and raiding could be as appealing as EX Primals I think we'd have a more enjoyable end game.

[Kaurie]

I will grant that we don't know for a fact which of these two systems would be better. Are you proposing people no longer discuss things that don't have a factually known answer, then? Not really sure where you're going with this.

My opinion is that this game will greatly suffer if, at this point, they go from the current system to one consisting only of random drops.

I am discussing it, and am all for discussing it. I am not for statements which completely disregard the opposing opinion, when the statements are based on made up facts.

Instead of making doom and gloom statements, or saying that people with opposing views suffer from some form of logical errors of bias in their arguments, just state what your opinion is and why.

When it comes to loot I hate tomestones as a primary source.

To me personally I would say the loot system the extreme primals use is almost perfect. (better if tokens didn't eat inventory space)

If you kill Sophia Extreme for example a weapon is guaranteed to drop for the party. It may or may not be a weapon you want. If it is then that's cool hope you win the roll.

If it isn't then don't worry because you also got a token. so even if you do the fight loads of times and the weapon you want never drops. after x number of wins (10 in the case of extreme primals) you'll have enough tokens to get your weapon no matter what. so progress is still guaranteed

Personally I think it's one of the best loot systems in place.

The issue with tomestones (currently Scripture) is that player's don't do the content for the loot, just the daily bonus.
no one cares about the 225 loot that drops from expert roulettes for example. all they care about is the 90 scripture they'll get at the end... just makes the content even more invalid and obselete than it already is...

I pretty much agree with this. The same system can be found in raids, with Alexandrian pages dropping in addition to random drops. This gives you the excitement of loot that it may have just what you are looking for, but also provides a safety net against poor RNG.

While, I tend to prefer the system in WoW overall for loot, both the Extreme primal and Savage raid loot system works quite well and I am pretty content with it. My only request would be to add more secondary stat options. This could be with randomized stats in the drops and/or providing multiple options for purchasing with your tokens. Guild Wars 2 has a system like this, where you can buy the armor-piece with the secondary stats that you want for the build you're going for.

[Nezerius]

Looking at competitors, as mentioned previously, WoW has the highest subscriber rate of any MMO consistently and substantially for 12 years straight, and WoW uses a random stat system. This suggests that the success of an MMO is not dependent on using a tomestone system.

It also suggests that the success isn't dependent on a random stat/drop system. Since WoW got released at the right time, just as MMOs became popular, and gained a huge loyal fanbase because of it (just look at the milions who stayed subscribed in Warlords of Draenor, its worst expansion to date).

Do you mean random drop, or random stat system? The amount of items that actually use the <Random Enchantment> tag are a minority. In Legion, that accounts to the crafted gear, and trinkets from world quests. Everything else already has set stats, with the only difference being whether you get warforged/titanforged or a gem socket. Warforged/titanforged doesn't randomize the stats, it just increases the amount due to higher iLvl, while a gem socket is similar to materia melding.
There's also tertiary stats that may appear on an item, but those honestly don't really have much of an effect, unless you happen to stack a ton of a specific tertiary stat.

Comparing content that can be queued for (heroic dungeons in WoW, expert dungeons in XIV), they're really not all that different. The heroic dungeons in WoW drops gear that may get warforged/titanforged, but the base iLvl is easily overgeared through the world quest system (And I'd argue that unless you get a high titanforged proc, it's still likely to not be an upgrade). Similarly, XIV expert dungeons drop gear that people often already overgear, with the other reward being tomestones that can be used for upgrades. Alexander Normal can be compared to WoW LFR in a similar way, though I'd say it favors Alexander in that regard.

There's also mythic dungeons in WoW, but those can't be queued for, and XIV doesn't have any light party content that can be compared to it.

Additionally, the random legendary system in Legion is probably the expansion's most hated feature.

[Kaurie]

It also suggests that the success isn't dependent on a random stat/drop system. Since WoW got released at the right time, just as MMOs became popular, and gained a huge loyal fanbase . because of it (just look at the milions who stayed subscribed in Warlords of Draenor, its worst expansion to date).

Indeed, I did not draw that conclusion that it is dependent on a random stat/drop system. FFXIV is successful, and does not have this system. The point is that the success of an MMO is not dependent on these systems, and that implementing either is not going to cause the game to fail.

Do you mean random drop, or random stat system? The amount of items that actually use the <Random Enchantment> tag are a minority. In Legion, that accounts to the crafted gear, and trinkets from world quests. Everything else already has set stats, with the only difference being whether you get warforged/titanforged or a gem socket. Warforged/titanforged doesn't randomize the stats, it just increases the amount due to higher iLvl, while a gem socket is similar to materia melding.
There's also tertiary stats that may appear on an item, but those honestly don't really have much of an effect, unless you happen to stack a ton of a specific tertiary stat.

I mean both, to be honest. My understanding is that gear in dungeons (mythic+ included) also has random stats, but maybe I am mistaken. Even without random secondary stats, there are just more horizontal options available to obtain the secondary stat structure you want in WoW.

Comparing content that can be queued for (heroic dungeons in WoW, expert dungeons in XIV), they're really not all that different. The heroic dungeons in WoW drops gear that may get warforged/titanforged, but the base iLvl is easily overgeared through the world quest system (And I'd argue that unless you get a high titanforged proc, it's still likely to not be an upgrade). Similarly, XIV expert dungeons drop gear that people often already overgear, with the other reward being tomestones that can be used for upgrades. Alexander Normal can be compared to WoW LFR in a similar way, though I'd say it favors Alexander in that regard.

There's also mythic dungeons in WoW, but those can't be queued for, and XIV doesn't have any light party content that can be compared to it.

You can obtain legendary items and very high level items through titanforged in Heroic dungeons in WoW. Then there is also Mythic+ which can drop raid level gear; unfortunately, there is no real comparison here.

Additionally, the random legendary system in Legion is probably the expansion's most hated feature.

Some people hate it, but I don't think we have actual data to confirm this. Personally, I really like the feature. I don't go around exclaiming it though. The negative voices are always the loudest

[Nezerius]

I mean both, to be honest. My understanding is that gear in dungeons (mythic+ included) also has random stats, but maybe I am mistaken. Even without random secondary stats, there are just more horizontal options available to obtain the secondary stat structure you want in WoW.

Incorrect, the dungeons have set loot tables, with set stats. The Grand Challenger's Bounty (item reward based on the highest mythic+ cleared of the previous week) also takes from the dungeon loot tables, and doesn't have random stats.

You can obtain legendary items and very high level items through titanforged in Heroic dungeons in WoW. Then there is also Mythic+ which can drop raid level gear; unfortunately, there is no real comparison here.

I mentioned titanforged as well, but you'd have to be extremely lucky to get an upgrade that way. Titanforged shows up when an item gets a +15 ilvl bonus (base heroic iLvl 825 + 15, so i840) after that, the loot system keeps doing internal rolls for additional +5 ilvl upgrade steps. The total titanforged upgrade depending on how many of those rolls succeed. It requires a lot of luck to get something like i880 from a heroic. As for legendaries, they can drop from nearly any content in Legion.

Some people hate it, but I don't think we have actual data to confirm this. Personally, I really like the feature. I don't go around exclaiming it though. The negative voices are always the loudest

The ones who enjoy the feature are often the ones who got the right legendary as their first or second drop. The ones who hate it often do so because they've gotten a shit one, or none at all (like Prydaz or Sephuz).

But when it comes to tomes vs. random drops, the only way I could see it done through the dungeon system, is when SE decides to create a system similar to the mythic dungeons in WoW. Dungeons that are more difficult to clear, but also give decent gear drops as reward. There'd probably be a lot of complaints by not including it as a solo-queue in the Duty Finder (see PotD 101-200), but I think the cross-server Party Finder will be sufficient to gather parties for it.

[Kaurie]

Incorrect, the dungeons have set loot tables, with set stats. The Grand Challenger's Bounty (item reward based on the highest mythic+ cleared) also takes from the dungeon loot tables, and doesn't have random stats.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was confused, due to the plethora of different gear with various stats of the same ilvl that it appeared they were randomized.

I mentioned titanforged as well, but you'd have to be extremely lucky to get an upgrade that way. Titanforged shows up when an item gets a +15 ilvl bonus (base heroic iLvl 825 + 15, so i840) after that, the loot system keeps doing internal rolls for additional +5 ilvl upgrade steps. The total titanforged upgrade depending on how many of those rolls succeed. It requires a lot of luck to get something like i880 from a heroic. As for legendaries, they can drop from nearly any content in Legion.

I definitely understand, but I like that there is that random chance to obtain a higher quality item. I am only 840 and 849, so even obtaining items in that range is useful for me at the moment. I understand that once you have raid gear, the drops in heroic would be less useful. It's very different form here though, where the drops are useful if you are in gear dated 18 months ago. However, as long as you have obtained gear in the past 12 months, expert drops are completely pointless.

The ones who enjoy the feature are often the ones who got the right legendary as their first or second drop. The ones who hate it often do so because they've gotten a shit one, or none at all (like Prydaz or Sephuz).

That is possible. I have yet to receive one, and I still like the system, however.

[Neophyte]

My point is that we have no idea how many people whodid not sub in the first place, or quit because of the tomestone system, and we equally have no idea how many people would quit if the system was changed. Both systems directly affect if you get your drop, so the difference between getting your drop or changing the system is kind of moot.

You can get somewhat of an idea. Just look at gearing outside of tomestones. For example Mhach when released. There are complains about the tomestone system... but there is hate towards the rng drops.

What happens with those dungeons if the gear isn't relevant anymore, because without currency roulettes aren't needed anymore? Who would want to go ARF/Neverreap if they only drop ilvl 170 gear?
Who does lvl 50, if they only drop ARR gear?
So the 3.4 dungeons give 260 gear now.. what do the 3.45 give?

People already complain about burnout. A rng system only reinforces that.
Even if we assume someone's really only doing experts to cap their tomes... that's about 12*5 = 60 times the same 2 dungeons to cap tomes from 11/01/16 (3.45) to 01/24/17 (likely 3.5).
With rng that will only become more, with fun waiting for and fighting over loot every single run.
Unless in a premade group, which is better because of loot distribution then anyway. Same with tokens added as a safety net, because that is how farms usually are done, premade. Unless they make them not farm-able, like cap them on a daily/wekly basis, which would make them literally tomestones , lol.
Speedruns will be more of a thing than ever, because no drop->again->no drop->again..
It's easy to forgive one slow run, if it's the only one for today.. but 5 slow ones in a row? Nah, "kick"...

Well, the fights over loot can be alleviated by giving personal drops.. but that won't solve the other issues.

tl;dr: RIP dutyfinder with a (not weekly locked) rng system and no currency, because dungeon runs will be done like any other farm where loot distribution and time efficiency matters: (PF) premade
Also more hate towards other players if not premade, because fights over important loot (proof: Mhach, Alex normal).
Also even more pressure to speed run.

[Dzian]

I pretty much agree with this. The same system can be found in raids, with Alexandrian pages dropping in addition to random drops. This gives you the excitement of loot that it may have just what you are looking for, but also provides a safety net against poor RNG.

Yeah it's a great system and it works really well. Progress is guaranteed but sometimes you also get that bit extra out of it.

Sticking with Sophia ex as my earlier example. I was quite lucky in that my first clear netted me the BLM weapon which was exactly the one I wanted to get.

Then I wanted the NIN weapon as my ninja was still running around with a 230 relic. so I went back a few times but had no luck on drops. Got to the point where I had 9 totems so I was feeling quite pumped as the next win I'd have my NIN weapons guaranteed.

Join a pf group and next win the NIN weapons drop and I win them on a greed roll. So now I have my weapon AND 10 totems which I could now use to get something else. BONUS!

I'm levelling warrior maybe I'll get the axe when I get 60. 4 wins later in the same group the axe drops and I ask if anyone's rolling cos I'm 56 so won't roll if someone has it at 60. group says I can have it. great...

I switch to scholar to fill a healer slot in the party and couple of runs later the SCH book drops. W00T!!!!.

As a loot system it works really well. because sure I've been quite lucky on drops and I've been doing the fight for the drops, but there's always been the guarantee that even if RNG hated me and didn't drop it I can get that weapon I want. thus progress has been guaranteed.

In my case I didn't need to use the totems so I'm now sitting on about 50 which is halfway towards the bird if I don't win the whistle before then. If I do win the whistle then great....

it's a system where you can't lose. but it still feels good to win.

it's the best loost system XIV uses by a long shot. miles better than lore/scripture/inserttomestonehere. because the problem withthem is you don't do the content for the rewards only the daily tomes... and ya restricted by weekly caps and all that faff aswell

I like the Tome gear system since SE seems to have odd weights on gear drops atm to the point were healer and tank gear drops more then caster gear

Do you think so. I always see dragoon get like 70% of the drops. even in Sophia. I swear ive seen more lances than anything

[Kaurie]

You can get somewhat of an idea. Just look at gearing outside of tomestones. For example Mhach when released. There are complains about the tomestone system... but there is hate towards the rng drops.

What happens with those dungeons if the gear isn't relevant anymore, because without currency roulettes aren't needed anymore? Who would want to go ARF/Neverreap if they only drop ilvl 170 gear?
Who does lvl 50, if they only drop ARR gear?
So the 3.4 dungeons give 260 gear now.. what do the 3.45 give?

People already complain about burnout. A rng system only reinforces that.
Even if we assume someone's really only doing experts to cap their tomes... that's about 12*5 = 60 times the same 2 dungeons to cap tomes from 11/01/16 (3.45) to 01/24/17 (likely 3.5).
With rng that will only become more, with fun waiting for and fighting over loot every single run (unless premade group, which is better because of loot distribution then anyway).

RIP dutyfinder with a rng system and no currency.

Someone said it eloquently earlier in the thread, that an RNG system is not necessarily bad, it's how the RNG system is implemented. I don't think that the FFXIV dev team has found an RNG system that works well, but there are systems in other games of the genre which do.

Personally, I haven't run Neverreap in 1.5 years, and I've done ARF 5 times ever. I don't do 50 roulette. So, I guess from a personal perspective, I don't think they are doing a great job of encouraging me to want to run those instance. The only things in this game that I currently feel encouraged to run are expert roulettes (up to this week, now I have all my scripture gear I need, so I won't be capping any more), and Savage raids.

I'd rather systems which don't encourage burn out. I think RNG with small and frequent rewards is the way to go. FFXIV seems to excel in low drop rate, high reward, weekly lock out type RNG. I think a system which does not have a lockout, drops frequently, but only has a chance at small upgrades is more enjoyable. That way, every time I log in, I can obtain an upgrade and feel that my time was justified - even if it's just for a small boost. Instead of gaining major upgrades every week (i.e. every week I seem to gain ~20 INT and a bunch of secondary stats), I could gain a minor upgrade every day (i.e. +2 INT per day).

[Pyretta_Blaze]

I prefer random drops with a token or currency as a bad RNG safety net.