Discuss the Abolishment of the Armoury System and Classes

[Nakiamiie]

I totally disagree with OP, the armoury system is still valid. It still does allow to change class anytime by simply changing weapon AND use cross-class abilities/traits (I do feel there are too many class exclusive abilities -- especially in 1.20, but that's another discussion). The armoury system is still valid and living. The job system is a specialization of the armoury system in FFXIV, both are tied together.

Either way, I feel like Yoshi/Devs. want to take the emphasis away from grinding your classes/jobs away and put the focus on fighting (hopefully epic) boss battles and progressing in storyline, etc.

Which is awesome, a small grind is ok, but too much is like having another real job. Hopefully, we'll see that new focus happen.

[Claire_Pendragon]

(Posted from another thread about JoaTs (Jack of all trades))

The sole reason jobs were made, were for 2 reasons.
(1) the main reason, Yoshida didn't just want to continue doing things "Tanaka's Way" (Not a stab at tanaka, more so mean, his dislike for JoaT classes.), and honestly, I understand this, and would find ways to bend the current system to something that fits my style.
Yoshida wanted less JoaT feel, to give the job/roles some more limited specialization, so it could be kept under control easier. (As time comes, who knows what doors will open, but for now we will have some limits.)
He knew people would get a little TOO pissed, if he removed class swapping abilities, or took away allot of the useful 'solo' abilities, that make most classes JoaTs.

So now comes the 2nd idea, that allowed for this 1st one, to be complete.
(2) People complained the game is for casuals (I'm a casual player, but I don;t agree with the following personally.) and that needing to level so many classes, was preventing them from "Playing the game fully as just one class." which Tanaka originally promised.
So the job system, was a way to "enhance" current classes, so they don't need to use other class abilities, and be a specialized role.
Some theorize it might be possible to still be good as a class, mixing all the right cross class abilities. (aka still not a waste of time having taken up so many classes .)

Over all I think Yoshida is all in favor of "No classes, only Jobs", but because of the mentioned points, will go this route.
It's not to my liking, but it's not too bad of a concept, to fix what he/others think are a problem.

The inventory issue is something that does need to be addressed (and will be slightly, with each class getting a special "bag" space, to keep gear for it, and won't take up normal inventory.) But with the "gear bag" system, will it also include Jobs?
If so, then there is no problem.
But making gear that is MRD only or WAR only, rather than MRD AND WAR only, will be just 1 more problem to deal with.

So are the classes holding FFXIV down? IMO no, but I understand where you are coming from.
A bit of a confusing system for new people, but meh~

[OriginalHungerforce]

OMFG really getting tired of these whiney posts before even knowing how things will work.

For instance, there are no action points, most of the abilities and spells are deleted, there are no guild marks and thus no cross class traits to buy and use, and while you can still equip abilities from other classes, you can only do 1 extra one every few ranks now.

Actions points arent needed as we've been given a set number of actions we can equip cross class (10 actions). I dont think any more than that is really needed with the new skill set. How is that a major change?
As far as traits go, how do you know there won't be any cross class traits?

Let's face it, the Armoury system is not the Armoury system we signed up for on day one.

It's still very much there. The main feature of the "armoury system" was just changing your weapon meant changing your class. If you're referring to being able to mix and match skills across multible classes, That is also still very much there, just limited to certain actions and a certain amount.

Classes have also completely changed in patch 1.20. DoM are completely redone, Archer has gone from DD to support, and Pugilist has gone from away from an emphasis on DD. The fact that classes are still in the game is just a reluctant fan service at this point. Gladiator for example. What role is there for a Gladiator outside the role of Paladin? It's the same thing but having it be separate is just confusing at the point we've come to.

Yes classes have been redone. But who is to say archer wont dish out damage? Archer didnt go from DD to support it went from DD to DD PLUS support.
Pug didn't lose it's DD capabilities. It went from DD to DD PLUS elemental damage.
Gladiator? What role was there for gladiator before? It was always meant to be a tank. Paladin is just an upgraded more specialized tank.

People are misunderstanding the class/job system. SEVERELY. The classes in ffxiv are like the basic jobs in ffxi. The jobs in ffxiv are like the advanced jobs in ffxi. They just renamed and rearranged the skills and renamed the classes.
The job system will not render classes obsolete. Did the advanced jobs render the basic jobs obsolete in ffxi? NO! Warrior tanked in the beginning before Paladins were around/released. But when Paladin came out it was the sought after tank. Does that mean no one took Warrior? No they still took warrior.

The dev team could have left these systems alone and decided to implement their radical changes overtop, like a job system wherein you have all new abilities at your disposal and none of your class abilities. Let's face it though, they decided to delete class abilities because of how complex that system would have been. So to those that have been playing since launch, I ask what is the significance of a class now?

What is the significance of a class? Well for one I doubt the jobs will be able to solo much as they have roles that are so finely defined they're wont be able to sustain the other roles

As another poster suggested recently, if the dev team made a radical change like this, they could present the option of considering your levels earned as points that you could reallocate towards the new classes if you elect to do so. needed to solo anything of significance. Where as a class would still be able to do this.

Also YOUR JOB STRENGTH/LEVEL IS DEPENDANT ON YOUR CLASS LEVEL. So when that level cap raises guess who's going to be partying it up? CLASSES!!!

Then we just have a job system. I think starting from patch 1.20, we would be better off with only a job system and no classes whatsoever.

I think if we're really going to have a radical change in this game it should be radical and not just a mediocre compromise. The more patch notes and plans I see, the more I cringe at the merging of these old, open systems with the new, closed ones. Let's just go all the way. We will be better off if you could just select Black Mage, White Mage, Bard, or Paladin at the character creation screen instead of trying to explain to somebody how the classes work in this game.

I do not agree with this at all. These changes are in no way mediocre. If you actually take the time to study the list of actions and their descriptions you will see that every class has been given a more defined role. Not so defined that they wont be able to solo but defined enough to give them a purpose and to stop the exclusion of classes in certain events. Ifrit was not meant to be fought with 5 lancers!
Add the jobs on top of the classes and thats where the roles become so finely defined that you will not be able to solo effectively.
Think of it this way. Jobs are an interlocking system. A chain if you will. Where each job will be dependant on another to be effective to it's fullest potential. I can already see mages and monks being dependant on bards and paladins full abilities being dependant on whm. Look closely at those job abilities. You'll see it too. They've created a chain where each link has a purpose and no one is potentially "over powered" and every job is equally sought after in party play. Will there be weak links in the chain? Probably but we will get balancing patches soon after.
Classes on the other hand give you the ability to break that chain. Combining abilities for when the time calls for it or for events that only require small groups..

[Wolfie]

I'm really terrified that the job system is going to end up being extremely awkward, moreso than the armory system and then that would pretty much be the end of FFXIV. I'll have to wait and see until jobs are actually released, but implementing "party-only" versions of the same classes that we have now sounds extremely weird and easy to f*** up.

[Jigg]

The armory system is pretty straightforward...Yoshi's bringing the classes inline with his vision of the game, which is a MUCH better vision than the original by far. Currently, the jobs are going to be 1:1, but since they're items (Job Stones) then this won't or shouldn't always be the case. I could see Marauder going Warrior and Dark Knight for example.

Put down your 'The End is Nigh' signs and play the game. Changes are coming, and we've known about them for quite a long time.

[darkstarpoet1]

The armory system is pretty straightforward...Yoshi's bringing the classes inline with his vision of the game, which is a MUCH better vision than the original by far. Currently, the jobs are going to be 1:1, but since they're items (Job Stones) then this won't or shouldn't always be the case. I could see Marauder going Warrior and Dark Knight for example.

Put down your 'The End is Nigh' signs and play the game. Changes are coming, and we've known about them for quite a long time.

too bad it's a vision of a blind man. you have your belief his vision is better than the original and mine is the opposite. it makes neither of us right and neither of us wrong.

[Junpei]

As far as traits go, how do you know there won't be any cross class traits?
<snip>
Also YOUR JOB STRENGTH/LEVEL IS DEPENDANT ON YOUR CLASS LEVEL. So when that level cap raises guess who's going to be partying it up? CLASSES!!!

The initial outline stated traits wont be cross class (source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...509#post441509 - under heading 4 it states "All traits will be made class-exclusive."

and

EXP earned as a job is given to the attached class, so people will be partying as jobs.

[darkstarpoet1]

The initial outline stated traits wont be cross class (source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...509#post441509 - under heading 4 it states "All traits will be made class-exclusive."

and

EXP earned as a job is given to the attached class, so people will be partying as jobs.

don't expect people that are supporting this to have even read about the actual changes.

[OriginalHungerforce]

The initial outline stated traits wont be cross class (source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...509#post441509 - under heading 4 it states "All traits will be made class-exclusive."

I missed that one thanks

EXP earned as a job is given to the attached class, so people will be partying as jobs.

Where is this? My understanding is that it was the opposite. Jobs will progress through quests and their level will be based off exp earned on the class(es) required to unlock it.

[Airget]

Topics like this shouldn't exist until the actual VU takes place. The input is nothing more then fear of what one may think the changes may lead to. While sure it may suck to see some of your favorite abilities disappear or class concepts change completely, it's not fair to pass judgement til you actually see it in action. Also it's not like we've even gotten the whole picture yet, there are still 12 traits for each class which we have yet to see which could completely change the way we view the classes as of now.

There's to much assuming that just because the changes are so drastic and things are only being given 15 skills and such that it'll will kill the armory system. But if you take a step back you would notice that about 57 abilities can be cross-classed and by 50 you can select 10 of those so it's not like you have options. If you take a look at the abilities available to choose from there's is quite the option, you can decide on using mp to evade an attack or magic, lower enmity while increasing TP gain of next attack, you can set an action that let's you attack again if you missed an attack, even one for parrying. You can increase your parry rate or set an ability that instantly restores HP. You can reduce the amount of dmg taken while increasing enmity gains.

So to think that this armory system limping along in a horribly disfigured state is quite the wrong impression to take if you look at all the cross-class ability options. Also the assumption made on Archer going from DD to support is false as well, 5 abilities don't dictate a class as a whole. While Archer has one "support" ability in the effect of an AOE movement speed, they don't gain support abilities til they select the job Bard. Even with Bard they are given one melee move and it's not like the moves they are given are useless. The support they provide is quite helpful and easy to use. If an Archer has a problem being on Bard to either give all players more HP, give mages a Refresh effect, give the entire party a dmg potency increase or give the party a TP regain effect then that's just lazy lol. Honestly speaking with the options available to Bard it's not like those very abilities can't be used to also increase your own dmg, it's just that every few minutes you might have to reapply it but you can at least know that the very input you are putting into battle is a helpful one that will increase overall damage while saving you some time from having to use some arrows lol.

But ya, just wait before making topics like this, there is to much assuming going on with the original post that you may just find yourself loving the new system once you try it out and find it silly that you ever thought it was causing the armory system to become disfigured lol.

@OriginalHungerforce:

That just means when you are using the Paladin job your xp will go towards your Gladiator level so it's not like being on Paladin will limit your ability to obtain xp.