WHM getting progressively more unnecessary in content?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

The problem with N.AST+WHM lies not in what the pairing does, but what players expect a healer composition to do.

Players fully expect your comp to be sufficient to get plenty of Cleric Stance uptime. But N.AST/WHM is more of a strictly healing setup. You can't get better healing value than these two together, and if we're talking strict healing almost no Cleric Stance this technically is the superior pairing. But that's not what players want. And I'm not sure if SE understands that or not.

I know Yoshi said he wanted content that doesn't require healer DPS, but players still fully expect that and will optimize to ensure we have the easiest time running off to Cleric Stance every other tank buster. Either Yoshi embraces this style of play, completely squashes it in 4.0 or ignores it and keeps watching comps like N.AST+WHM fall flat is up to him I suppose.

[Cynfael]

I know Yoshi said he wanted content that doesn't require healer DPS...

While I generally agree with your points and am not disputing your argument, I want to poke at this particular statement because it keeps coming up on both sides of the issue.

Just a reminder that, unless I've missed something, basically nothing has been said officially about healer DPS except that raid content DPS minimum clears are not calculated with healer DPS numbers included and that the question of healer DPS is up to the players.

Yoshi and team have been pretty careful not to further inflame the healer controversy, probably in no small part because they don't want to turn off potential new healers or new-to-FFXIV players who assume that the responsibility is too great to make the role enjoyable. Once they begin playing and realize that "healer DPS" boils down to a stance toggle, a handful of abilities with no strict rotations, and the basic ability to read and anticipate mechanics, they're good to go.

[Thrivaios]

I can say there is one major upside to being a WHM: I never have to worry that my cohealer will, in some way, override my abilities.

What I mean by that is that all of my WHM regen abilities stack with another WHM. But when I play my SCH I always have that little fear in the back of my head that I'll get stuck with another SCH whose shields could overwrite mine (or I could do the same to theirs). Not a major nitpick but something I think about. Same for AST. Being in a pug group with another AST requires coordination of card dispersal and that only happens if the AST is competent.

While I don't feel that WHM is becoming more unnecessary, I do agree that they need something done to their tool kit. Maybe not something new added but existing things tweaked, such as lowering MP cost to allow for more comfortable DPS. One thing I have frequently noticed is when I DPS on my WHM to the same degree I do on SCH (or even AST), my MP goes down the crapper real quick.

[basketofseals]

What I mean by that is that all of my WHM regen abilities stack with another WHM. But when I play my SCH I always have that little fear in the back of my head that I'll get stuck with another SCH whose shields could overwrite mine (or I could do the same to theirs). Not a major nitpick but something I think about. Same for AST. Being in a pug group with another AST requires coordination of card dispersal and that only happens if the AST is competent.

I know exactly what you mean by this. I had my extended, COd, time dilated balance overwritten by an AoE spire once. I put AST down and never picked it back up again.

[Thrivaios]

I know exactly what you mean by this. I had my extended, COd, time dilated balance overwritten by an AoE spire once. I put AST down and never picked it back up again.

I...want to cry for you. There is nothing more infuriating than a massive buff like that being overwritten, especially by something like AoE Spire.

[CookieMonsta]

The problem with N.AST+WHM lies not in what the pairing does, but what players expect a healer composition to do.

This also happens to be one of the best DPS combinations. The WHM can fire & forget regens, asylum etc etc and Cleric spam for dayz to abuse their ridiculous DPS while the AST can still contribute rDPS even in cleric.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

This also happens to be one of the best DPS combinations. The WHM can fire & forget regens, asylum etc etc and Cleric spam for dayz to abuse their ridiculous DPS while the AST can still contribute rDPS even in cleric.

In a perfect world, it would work like this and be awesome.
Unfortunately, there are multiple issues with this composition when it comes to getting out optimal healer dps.

First, And most obviously, WHM MP issues. Between constantly throwing out regens and DPSing, you'll be begging for Ballad 4 minutes in the fight.

Second, the lack of a fairy is technically one less regen ticking on the tank for no MP cost, which means you'll have to cradle the tank much more than normally.

Third, the fairy offers additional aoe regen and what is essentially a second Divine Seal making healing even easier. AST lacks all of this, which means you have to make it all up with less cleric stsnce uptime.

Like I said it's definitely the superior healing composition, but it's nowhere near optimal for dps.

I'd also like to note that the only "fire and forget" regen WHM has is Asylum. No ETCs.
Regen and Medica II are things you manage. Eos is something you forget about as it auto heals your party.

[Kabzy]

Eos is something you forget about as it auto heals your party.

Not really, a good SCH will manage both Embrace as well as all the fairy CDs. I agree it's easier for SCH to keep healing up while DPSing, but lets not completely discredit them. It's not braindead like you're saying.

[technole]

This also happens to be one of the best DPS combinations. The WHM can fire & forget regens, asylum etc etc and Cleric spam for dayz to abuse their ridiculous DPS while the AST can still contribute rDPS even in cleric.

Yep, AST/WHM is a much better comp this go-around. What I find some groups don't seem to synergize it optimally. As the N.AST should be the "main healer" in a sense because with same gear level, Benefic > Cure due to the stance healing buff. With this in-mind that allows the WHM to support them with AoE regens, and sustain DoT DPS more freely.

Not really, a good SCH will manage both Embrace as well as all the fairy CDs. I agree it's easier for SCH to keep healing up while DPSing, but lets not completely discredit them. It's not braindead like you're saying.

Agreed. The difference between a good and an average SCH is seen immediately from their Embrace and their pet cooldown management. Are they supporting their co-healer with skills and cooldowns so they don't have to spend more time healing than they should freeing them as well to put DPS DoTs up.

[Accelerating]

So why are most speed runners using SCH/AST instead of WHM/AST when that comp is really that much better?