WHM getting progressively more unnecessary in content?

[Fernosaur]

In fact i'de beckon this combo is alot stronger then diurnal/sch. Diurnal feels like a poor mans WHM sometimes. And DPS wise on par or stronger then SCH/WHM due to cards.

The problem with NoctAST+WHM vs DiAST+SCH is the lack of stacked regens, and as such, CS uptime will be less for whoever is taking care of the MT. SCH+DiAST can very easily leave AspB + Eos handle most of the MT damage save for tank busters, and big hits on the party will always force the WHM to put up Medica II, which not only takes casting time and less CS uptime, but also big chunks of MP that, in your example, would be better spent DPSing. Whispering Dawn takes care of all that and completely ignores these setbacks.

I'm not saying WHM+NoctAST is bad, I actually think they can work pretty well and also agree that they can cooperate very well in having them both DPS, but that pairing is still inferior to DiAST+SCH by a considerble margin.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Diurnal feels like a poor mans WHM sometimes.

I'm sorry but this is just not true. The only thing separating D.AST and WHM is cure III. D.AST is every bit as good as a WHM. It successfully fills the role of a main healer, but while also adding it's own support and mitigation.

Not to mention they have better MP management which means longer times DPSing and longer healing time.
If anything WHM is the one that's lacking. It can only heal and it's DPS is subject to acc issues and MP issues.
It's heals all cost a bucket ton of MP even though it's 1:1 potency with AST heals. One of its emergency heals, Benediction, is so inconsistent because of its animation time that it can barely function as a emergency heal. Not to mention it's on a HUGE CD even though essential dignity can achieve similar effects if it crits.

[Rennies]

Diurnal is objectively better than White Mage at level 60 due to superior mana management, utility, a combined Asylum/Sacred Soil cooldown (which doesn't require people to stay put for more than 3 seconds) and the underestimated extensions offered by Time Dilation and especially Celestial Opposition. White Mage is only better than Astrologian at 50 because Gravity isn't available til 52. Without superior AoE damage, there's no contest.

[technole]

Some White Mages like to hang on to the "but Cure III" card, because its about the only niche skill left and it's not even necessary. Astro had no problems substituting Cure III back in Midas (A6S/A8S) and Creator Savage (A11S) with Helios as-applicable. Plus we have stuff in our kit to lessen the damage impact such as CU/Disable that WHM can't even do.

[Rennies]

I just wish they'd knock down WHM's mana costs down a tad, perhaps to match AST, and lower Assize to a 60s cooldown while allowing it to do the "not chosen" effect at half power (so if you're in Cleric Stance, it does max damage and half its non-CS healing).

Then, they could replace some of the reduced mana cost traits with actual power, like making Medica give 10 second 5%-10% mitigation, or having Esuna have a chance to be AoE.

[Valmaxian]

I just wish they'd knock down WHM's mana costs down a tad, perhaps to match AST, and lower Assize to a 60s cooldown while allowing it to do the "not chosen" effect at half power (so if you're in Cleric Stance, it does max damage and half its non-CS healing).

Then, they could replace some of the reduced mana cost traits with actual power, like making Medica give 10 second 5%-10% mitigation, or having Esuna have a chance to be AoE.

These are great suggestions. On another thread I had recommended giving WHM a passive that would restore MP when DPSing - more incentive to make them more serious sustained DPS contenders? Also, for mitigation options, what about Blink? A procced free or cheap-cast Stoneskin II in combat (others have brought this up)? That should be a GIVEN.

For me, WHM has always been about elegant design simplicity and raw power - keep it uncomplicated and reliable.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

The problem with N.AST+WHM lies not in what the pairing does, but what players expect a healer composition to do.

Players fully expect your comp to be sufficient to get plenty of Cleric Stance uptime. But N.AST/WHM is more of a strictly healing setup. You can't get better healing value than these two together, and if we're talking strict healing almost no Cleric Stance this technically is the superior pairing. But that's not what players want. And I'm not sure if SE understands that or not.

I know Yoshi said he wanted content that doesn't require healer DPS, but players still fully expect that and will optimize to ensure we have the easiest time running off to Cleric Stance every other tank buster. Either Yoshi embraces this style of play, completely squashes it in 4.0 or ignores it and keeps watching comps like N.AST+WHM fall flat is up to him I suppose.

[Cynfael]

I know Yoshi said he wanted content that doesn't require healer DPS...

While I generally agree with your points and am not disputing your argument, I want to poke at this particular statement because it keeps coming up on both sides of the issue.

Just a reminder that, unless I've missed something, basically nothing has been said officially about healer DPS except that raid content DPS minimum clears are not calculated with healer DPS numbers included and that the question of healer DPS is up to the players.

Yoshi and team have been pretty careful not to further inflame the healer controversy, probably in no small part because they don't want to turn off potential new healers or new-to-FFXIV players who assume that the responsibility is too great to make the role enjoyable. Once they begin playing and realize that "healer DPS" boils down to a stance toggle, a handful of abilities with no strict rotations, and the basic ability to read and anticipate mechanics, they're good to go.

[Thrivaios]

I can say there is one major upside to being a WHM: I never have to worry that my cohealer will, in some way, override my abilities.

What I mean by that is that all of my WHM regen abilities stack with another WHM. But when I play my SCH I always have that little fear in the back of my head that I'll get stuck with another SCH whose shields could overwrite mine (or I could do the same to theirs). Not a major nitpick but something I think about. Same for AST. Being in a pug group with another AST requires coordination of card dispersal and that only happens if the AST is competent.

While I don't feel that WHM is becoming more unnecessary, I do agree that they need something done to their tool kit. Maybe not something new added but existing things tweaked, such as lowering MP cost to allow for more comfortable DPS. One thing I have frequently noticed is when I DPS on my WHM to the same degree I do on SCH (or even AST), my MP goes down the crapper real quick.

[basketofseals]

What I mean by that is that all of my WHM regen abilities stack with another WHM. But when I play my SCH I always have that little fear in the back of my head that I'll get stuck with another SCH whose shields could overwrite mine (or I could do the same to theirs). Not a major nitpick but something I think about. Same for AST. Being in a pug group with another AST requires coordination of card dispersal and that only happens if the AST is competent.

I know exactly what you mean by this. I had my extended, COd, time dilated balance overwritten by an AoE spire once. I put AST down and never picked it back up again.