Vet gamer returning and would like some insight please

[shao32]

yeah but one thing point you to other, desing is just gameplay and how a skill interact to other, have better desing its just a matter of personal opinion more when we are talking about jobs how have diferent mechanics to do they role, if you compare 2.0 WAR with the 2.1 and the 3.0 yeah the 3.0 have better and more refined desing, but you cant compared WAR desing with PLD and DRK.

fluid and intuitive to play depend of the player and the job, i play all tanks, and y was main WAR in arr, for me warrior is not intuitive or fluid at all, i think is slow and brute, pretty derp, work pretty fine true but my personal experience say another think, but in other hand DRK is pretty fluid and intuitive to play as you say, all they skills have a pourpose and i use it all, its just a diferent desing, PLD as well, i fell is a little slow compared to DRK but i feel the job pretty fine as they style.

in the end in raid or any content is all numbers, boses dont care if you have a hard rotation or a easy one, WAR have pretty dead skills rigth now, usefull skills but are very situational now and not core like before the xpansion.

about the skills they go to fix that we know that, but make all like WAR is not even close a solution, and yoshida confirme PLD go to stay in the same path like now being the best defensive phisical tank so lets see what happen, about MT and OT its just raid utility.

[Brian_]

Design is not a matter of opinion. It's not a matter of opinion that PLD has numerous completely useless skills or that DRK sucks as an OT. It's not opinion that if you are OTing as PLD or DRK, half your skill set is just sitting there rotting. It's not opinion that Reprisal can't be activated while OTing in any intuitive way. It's not opinion that DRK's enmity generation when using an optimized rotation is just pathetic. It's not opinion that for some strange reason FoF doesn't buff Flash and that PLD's AoE DPS is straight garbage. It's not opinion that PLD + DRK is a terrible tanking comp. It's not opinion that having tanks that specialize in a specific kind of damage mitigation has created some serious issues with tank / content balance.

Just because you might enjoy playing a class doesn't change the facts about it. I was a PLD main and loved playing the job but that didn't make me blind from how garbage it was.

Saying that WAR should be the standard for tank design is not to say that PLD and DRK should just be palette swaps of WAR. It means that the same care should go into PLD and DRK's design and the result should have the same level of cohesion, logic, and practicality.

[shao32]

are you joking? tell me are you joking, this game is 3 years old now, 3 damm years old, and PLD was the same this 3 years old and have 0 issues in the tank role, being expert in a type of mitigation make this mess? no man, DPS make this mess the moment when the WAR dps dealt 200-300 compared to a paladin make this mess, paladin was not take apart for raider for being defensive or have situational skills, they get apart for only for DPS, PLD have a lot of utility, agro is not a problem and all tanks can survive every content regarless they mitigation specialitation, the only think that kill tank balance is the DPS and the DPS meta.

and PLD + DRK are not a terrible tanking comp, the problem is no matter what WAR+whatever is better comp in any field bcs WAR is damm over in utility ergo personal dps, raid mitigation and raid overall dps, we say it all this time, devs say it too, yoshida himself say it, desing of the job dont matter at all, they can put sole survivor pvp effect on DRK and you get you utility in the job.

if you want cohesion, logic and practicality, you dont lock half of you skill set old days usefull now very situational behind a stance you and many WAR here avoid like cancer and try to find any way to dont use it never outside the opener.

[Brian_]

If you think PLD had 0 issues in the tank role for 3 years, you are blind. PLDs have been complaining about various things for years. They complained about how boring the job was because all they did was spam RoH. They complained that their second highest potency GCD was fracture. They complained about the lack of utility. They complained about the various enmity issues caused by that rotation. They complained about TP. They complained about AoE DPS and AoE enmity generation. They complained about how clunky their Oaths were. They complained about situational skills that were rarely used and a waste of hotbar space (seriously, Riot Blade?). They complained about TP (no, that's not a typo. they complained about TP so much I thought it was worth mentioning twice). They complained about how dumb the hit table is in regards to parry and block. They complained about how it was a terribly designed job that was only getting used because of HG / it was effective enough for content. And, when competition was finally introduced in HW, that house of cards collapsed and PLDs were thrown in the dog house to no intelligent PLD's surprise. But yea, I'm just joking. The job was fine.

You're the one that's joking. Seriously, go over to blue gartr and look through the old PLD threads and you'll see how wrong you are.

I haven't mentioned DPS once in any of my posts but somehow you are completely fixated on that. What does DPS or the DPS meta have to do with any of the things I mentioned? DPS and the DPS meta are not why DRKs are crappy OTs. It's not why PLD + DRK is a horrible tanking comp. It's not why PLD has garbage TP management. What does DPS have to do with the flawed concept of having one tank for physical damage and one tank for magical damage?

Yea, WAR comps are better because WARs are designed to be effective regardless of their role because of the innate versatility of their skill-kit and because they are designed to have relevant utility. How does the design of the job not matter at all when you just listed out all their design strengths when explaining why WAR comps are better?

Seriously, just compare WAR's standard rotation effects to PLD's or DRK's.

Butcher's Block -- increased enmity (and their highest potency combo so they are incentivized to use it unlike PLD and DRK)
Storm's Eye -- 10% slashing resist down
Storm's Path -- 10% damage down

Rage of Halone -- increased enmity, 10% strength down
Royal Authority -- nothing
Goring Blade -- nothing

Power Slash -- increased enmity
Delirium -- 10% int down
Soul Eater -- nothing

When you have that large an imbalance in design at such a fundamental level, is it any wonder why WAR finds a spot in more comps?

And, good example with giving DRK trick attack. When you give them a type of utility they currently do not have, you are improving their design. So of course they're going to get better.

Yea, WARs avoid going into Defiance. That doesn't change the fact that it's there if they need more survivability and it does an excellent job of filling that need. That's what it means to have a well designed, well-rounded, versatile skill kit. And, at least Defiance is still well-designed enough that it sees some use in this DPS meta. ShO and Grit might as well not exist.

[shao32]

PLD most problem you say be solve with the ajust of the potency of the skills, the rest is just personal opinions, you can belive it but many PLD enjoy a lot they job, yeah a few situational skills but still usefull in a way on other.

yeah you made you point with the combos and they effects and one off my main reasons whe dont need what WAR have in the others (not at the same level) WAR have much utility really to much, you want have similar thinks on the other 2? i think is better balance the power of utility instead to add more and more, bcs that can break the game.

tp management is a think, have infinite is other.
have one tank better mitigating phisical and other magical is not flawed, those bonus of mitigation was really desing to make healers job more easy when you use a tank over other in that situtation, the power of the heals and the lack on raid damage on tanks make that desing fall, thats a isue whe all adresed, WAR have the best mitigation set in terms off skills and time of recast, inner beast alwais ready, but the conten was pretty desing for WAR bcs they take more damage compared to the other 2 and the other 2 can combine more mitigation skills plus they tank stance.

DPS meta? most of the problem, dps meta makes any extra mitigation mean useless (for the players) only dps matters, how have the best dps? warrior, DPS meta make just the problem a lot worse, was the catalist of all this.

its just not that simple of WAR should be the standar off tank desing, more and ever where WAR never run out of tp, they self heals are the best at the level to make healers heal less on him that the other 2, insane raid utility in both fields mitigation and damage, and have so low recast on they defensive skills.

how WAR skill interact with hem is the mark of the job as how DRK and PLD sets interac in they own, im not agree at all about you DRK points, i preffer by far have a ogdc reprisal being usefull in 90% of the conten (the other 10% is only is i have to OT) that have storm path with is a amaizing skill how WARs only use in raid in X moment bcs is a dps loss, i prefer sole survivor over and they guaranty reward vs mercy stroke how is just a ofgdc without let you get the reward 99% of the time, i prefer have darkside and my damage bonus every moment on the fight vs have to waste 2 gdc every dead time in boss fights or betwen pulls, my dps field is pretty fine in both sides and i only lack in some raid utility so yeah im not 100% perfect but yeah preffer my preffer my "worse" desing over the WAR one.

so i want to ask ¿you really want buff and change all tanks "desing" to have what WAR have now or just take all the power-utility whe have know and give equal parts to every one like i try to say in every trheat about this matter?

[Martin_Arcainess]

Seriously, just compare WAR's standard rotation effects to PLD's or DRK's.

Butcher's Block -- increased enmity (and their highest potency combo so they are incentivized to use it unlike PLD and DRK)
Storm's Eye -- 10% slashing resist down
Storm's Path -- 10% damage down

Rage of Halone -- increased enmity, 10% strength down
Royal Authority -- nothing
Goring Blade -- Inflicts Goring Blade dot

Power Slash -- increased enmity
Delirium -- 10% int down
Soul Eater -- Absorbs 100% damage dealt as HP.

Just fixed that for you.



Just add here there is no real bad Tank set up, just more efficient.


Also about PLD's TP, I dont' have any issues probs because I only use shield Lob for a pull and that is it.

Seriously I've seen PLD's Shield Lobing like it's not one of your most TP costful moves....

[Brian_]

How does adjusting the potency of skills fix how PLD only had 1 viable combo in 2.X? How does adjusting the potency of skills fix PLD TP issues? How does adjusting the potency of skills fix all of PLD's situational abilities? How does adjusting potencies give PLD more relevant utility?

SE addressed some of those issues in HW. They didn't do it by adjusting potencies. They did it by changing PLD's design. They did it by adding more skill diversity, more utility, lowering TP values, and changing the design of existing skills like removing ShO / SwO's combo interrupt and making Shield Swipe oGCD. They did it by giving PLD a stronger identity.

It's not my opinion that PLD has a lot of dead skills. It's a fact. So, stop lying about it. Go ahead and tell us how stuff like Cover and Tempered Will are used to good effect in Savage if you feel like proving otherwise.

You say DPS meta this, DPS meta that, but WAR is also the tank with the best overall mitigation, the highest burst eHP, and the best and most practical self sustain. If we lived in a world where tank mitigation was the most important thing, WAR would still be the best tank. WAR can adapt to multiple metas because they have a well-designed skill-kit with great overall relevancy.

I'm not saying that you just blindly buff PLD and DRK or change them completely. I am saying WAR should be the standard for tank design. I'm not really into fantasy lists of changes SE should make because I think it's pointless -- especially when everyone makes some dumb topic here about it. And, I believe it's SE's job to design the game and we should let them do that. But, I'll just go over a few areas where there are blatant imbalances that they should fix using WAR's success as a guideline. This is obviously not everything but it's just an idea of what it means to use WAR as the standard for design.

First off, ShO and Grit are both incredibly lacking compared to Defiance. Yes, ShO and Grit are technically better than Defiance. But, Defiance has the overall design package surrounding it including stuff like Equilibrium's healing factor, Unchained's damage penalty negation, IB's on demand mitigation / healing, 0 TP GCDs that help a lot with TP sustain, and the simple fact that when activating Defiance, you do not need to trade a GCD of nothing to do so. ShO has nothing and Grit has... DASE life leech. When you include those things into the comparison between Defiance and ShO / Grit, it is not balanced in terms of design. Grit and ShO both need more perks and more reasons for tanks to use them regardless of the meta. Even in this DPS meta, WARs are still encouraged to use Defiance. The same cannot be said for ShO and Grit because of the complete lack of relevant incentives to use them.

Secondly, enmity relationships between the three tanks are a mess and make no sense in terms of design. So the situation now is when you are tanking as a WAR and forced to maintain Eye and Path (this happens quite frequently in progression), your co-tank PLD will enmity creep on you because SB / CoS is a part of their DPS rotation. The same is true when you are tanking as a DRK with a PLD co-tank. Ideally, as a DRK, you want to rotate Delirium and SE for the MP regen but a PLD throws a wrench into that rotation due to SB and CoS. This is even worse as a DRK MT with a WAR OT using BB. How you fix this is you look at how WAR can adjust to a DRK MT just by using an Eye > Eye rotation for no additional enmity generation and minimal DPS loss or Eye > Path when Path is needed. Or, how when WAR is MTing, enmity is usually not an issue because BB is both their highest potency combo and their enmity generator.

So, for PLD, it makes more sense for RA to combo off Riot Blade than it does for it to combo off SB. That way, they can have a DPS rotation with zero bonus enmity. But, this will also lower their enmity generation while optimizing for DPS as a MT so you need to make the appropriate changes to RoH and Shield Swipe's enmity multiplier / potency to compensate. DRK on the other hand already has a proper DPS rotation with zero bonus enmity. But, the problem DRK has (that PLD shares) is that their enmity combo is so bad that they never want to use it. With WAR, you always want to BB because it is your highest potency combo. PS and RoH should have some type of incentive to encourage their use when appropriate.

Third, skills and stats should always be relevant. With WAR, even when you are not tanking, you can still use RI and Vengeance to help your OT contribution and enable one of your bread and butter rotations. Even when you don't need Equilibrium's healing component, you can still use it as a TP refresh. PLD and DRK design should follow suit. In both PLD and DRK's case, main perks of their jobs are rendered useless when OTing -- block for PLD and parry procs for DRK. That needs to change. In both PLD and DRK's case, numerous skills are either very situational or completely useless. That needs to change. You mentioned Sole Survivor. That's not an example of a situational skill since it's like Mercy Stroke in design. It's a skill that has enough practicality to enable content to cater to it. In Savage, there are multiple opportunities to cash out on its effect. A9S has multiple add waves. A10S has multiple adds. A11S has E.D.D. and Lapis. A12S has the add phase. So, just like how you can consistently get a good ~1k+ potency out of Mercy Stroke, you can also consistently activate Sole Survivor. It's a small boost that is still meaningful. The same cannot be said for skills like Tempered Will and Cover.

Just look at PLD for example. Why couldn't Sheltron and Bulwark, two shield themed skills, be thematically altered into sword based skills while in SwO like how Equilibrium as dual effects? Just like how Sheltron guarantees a block and Bulwark increases block chance, when in SwO, Sheltron and Bulwark could transform into sword equivalents. "Swordtron" could instead guarantee a double hit on your next action to fit the SwO theme (which you'd ideally want to use with RA) and Bulwark could give a chance for additional auto attacks after actions. Locking Sheltron behind ShO would give ShO more value and PLDs more incentive to use it and make the stances more unique like WAR's. Sheltron and Bulwark would then be relevant while OTing, too. Perhaps even SwO could funnel your chance to block into det instead for more thematic consistency and coherent design just like how WAR stacks switch from parry to crit between Defiance and Deliverance.

Despite borrowing from WAR's design, PLD still retains their design flavor. In fact, their Sword and Shield theme is reinforced even more.

[Sarcatica]

Digressing from the topic, all I can say is that people just don't realize this game revolves around damage output way more than most MMOs. Literally most skills are associated with damage output and I just don't get why tank mains are still stuck with their own interpretation of tanking: "as long as I can tank, im a good tank". Go figure, different game dude.

How far are you in raiding? Maybe that will shed some light. Tanks have way less excuse on DPS part VS healers because damage output is ingrained in most skills that any tank has. FFXIV is one of the few MMOs that focus more on the DPS part, hence the DPS meta, it's a different approach from other games and majority of tanks just don't get it OR probably wants to stay on the "im tank i only tank, if i want to dps i play dps" bubble.



Dem meme, except that healers generally have less weight on DPS responsibility. "I AM GOOD AT TANKING", said every shit tank ever. If you are a good tank in this game, you can tank while doing decent damage.

Plsplspls open your eyes big enough before attempting to shame yourself.

[shao32]

with i agree about emity desing is true, emity is pretty useless at a certain point and how WAR combo works is more a waste that how works on PLD and DRK when you have something so wonderful like storm path, thats more a fail in the WAR field.

our tank stance is a waste in all jobs, more on WAR bcs you have more skills locks behind it compared to how PLD and DRK can use all they skill in and out, so even if are more usefull or mandatory i still prefer have the posibility to use all when i can, emity this days is not a issue at all except if you have a WAR touching your balls.

about my coments of DRK skills vs WAR skills is more to counter you argument, about cover and tempered willboth skills are very situational but shine when they can be use, sophia extreme and mechanics when another job get a tons of raw damage or go to get a debuff by damage cover works amaizing, but need lower recast that true.

WAR skill desing act around on how deliverance/defiance are desing, the job have main skills lock in one stance or in the other, the wrath system is just to make sure WAR can acces to the most importan skills in X moment and dont have to depend on gdc to build 5 stacks, is pretty obious this is part of 2.1 desing when inner beast was mandatory not like know, looking how WAR is desing this bonus are for that, PLD and DRK dont have mechanics like that so thats pretty usefull, the only true example WAR have is equilibrium and still is a pretty broke skill in relation of benefic and recast.

Tank balance is not only about the balance in the role, is about balance it with all the roles, and have all tanks with the same WAR status dont have any place in a trinity based game like this, except if you want to dismantle the holy trinity, you still fail to see the problems to have a job how shines in every field and how make all equal dont solve nothing and make all worse.

[Brian_]

It's not a fail in the WAR field when WAR actually has a straightforward, intuitive, self-sufficient, and versatilte rotation unlike PLD and DRK. Early progression and need more raid mitigation? Path is there for you. Otherwise, Eye rotation and Block provide things you actually consistently need as a tank (raid DPS and enmity). That's significantly better than PLD which has no versatility or utility in their rotation and doesn't provide enough of either raid DPS or enmity. It's also better than DRK which is forced into needless INT debuff up-time even after it's superfluous, doesn't provide any raid-DPS boost, and has enmity issues because they only begrudgingly use their enmity combo.

If enmity is not an issue for you when playing PLD or DRK. You are not playing the job well and/or are not playing with competent DPS.

And I asked you to provide real examples of how Cover and Tempered Will are useful in Savage. You reference Sophia EX where you could just properly position yourself and negate the need for Tempered Will. Then you provide anecdotal evidence for why Cover is good. Again, provide some real support or stop lying.

But, that's really all you've been doing this entire topic. Spewing a bunch of falsehoods without support or with incorrect support. And, deflecting point after point once you're proven wrong with garbage like "I like the job so it's balanced."

Yea, tank balance is not only about the balance of the role. It's about the balance with all jobs.

That's why PLD and DRK's insufficient design are especially damaging and inappropriate within the trinity. PLD basically makes it so that you need a MNK in early prog and DRK makes it so you don't want a MNK in your group. DRK and PLD make it so that you're heavily incentivized to bring a NIN. Bringing both basically means that you're going to need to jump through loops of fire to not heavily delay progression. It's their bad design that pigeon-holes them into the MT role thus creating an unhealthy duality within the trinity, prevents more varied MT / OT comps, makes WAR near mandatory, and has an unhealthy influence on raid compositions and mechanic assignments. Why is your tank job choice deciding what DPS you should bring? That doesn't sound very respectful of the trinity. In the meanwhile, WARs are equally comfortable and self-sufficient in any composition and allow Tanks, DPS, and Healers to function in their role. They don't force you to off-load raid mitigation or enmity responsibilities to DPS jobs.

When you have a job that is fundamentally sound, it allows everyone the freedom to play what they want to play. If DRK and PLD were as well designed as WAR, you wouldn't be begging your NIN for Shadewalker. You wouldn't be forced to bring a MNK for DK. You wouldn't shun MNKs because you have a DRK. You could be a PLD/DRK OT with no sacrifice in optimization. PLD and DRK would work fine together and all three tanks would be equally viable as MT / OT, raid compositions would be more varied, and more people could find their place in a group. How does that make it all worse?

Man, I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. In this case, though, that horse would rather drink their own piss or poison than clean drinking water.