Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

[SeriousxSarcasm]

Tanks can hold aggro on single and multitargets even without tank stance.
Dark Knights! I summon you!!

LOL, fair enough. ;p I only ever get newbie DRKs, but I know someone in my old FC that mains it and does ok. My point still stands though. Highly skilled tanks are alright at generating aggro outside of tank stance, your average tank (or even a slightly under-geared one) is not. That doesn't mean they're bad tanks, just means they're not aspiring for end-game levels of skill lol.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

DRK can fairly easily hold hate in AoE situations, technically, due to the way Abyssal Drain works, especially if they have BP up. Warrior's can too actually with OP spam, it's a common speed pull tactic for a Warrior to Bloodbath, Berserk, IR, and Vengeance in Deliverance for some tight AoE damage and threat gen thanks to vengeance ticks.

Yeah... but "can" rarely translates into "does," you know what I'm saying? XD I'm not questioning tank DPS/threat abilities (I've seen my sis sit at the top of a parse someone posted after EX primals), I'm just saying that less skilled/geared tanks shouldn't expect DPS to sit on their hands so they can pretend to be a badass without their tank-stance. Also you didn't mention PLD's Circle of Scorn, which has decent AOE as well. :3

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Circle of Scorn wasn't mentioned because it's presence is more vestigial than anything in regards to AoE threat, and PLD is the only tank right now that needs to actually be in tank stance, in comparison to it's peers, for AoE tanking. It does have a nice radius, but any pld expecting it to suffice for AoE threat is gonna have a rude awakening.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

... Why do people in the forums always pick my "off topic" parts of a comment instead of responding to the actual relevant part of the convo? @_@ Blarg, I never claimed it generated good threat, just that it had decent AOE. I think we're misunderstanding each other somewhere in this conversation. Nvm, I'm tired of repeating the actual point (which was not that) and this will probably continue into infinity if I bother lol. But thank you for the discussion all the same, it's not often I can have one without people starting to throw personal attacks around.

[Thalvaus]

It depends on the game. Back in WoW there was such a thing as a "white dps phase" whereby DPS had to wait for a tank to stack sunder and gather threat before they could use any abilities. If you didn't watch your aggro and were only focused on personal dps, then you weren't a team player and thus you were a horrible DPS. That game changed so that tanks have some +5,000% threat so that a single thunderclap keeps aggro for most of the fight.


In FFXIV it depends on the class and the level range. As well as differing in situations where DPS -- even Tank and Healer DPS -- matters.

15-30(40 for paladins) can be rough on a new tank that is fresh from a different game. There is a 2.5 second global to consider, and it takes at least 5+ seconds to perform your first threat combo ability. In addition, they may hail from a game where there are incredible threat modifiers, such as the changes made in WoW. So when a DPS (who is likely with max HQ gear at this point) also attacks a target the tank isn't focusing, it will almost definitely be taken from him. In this case, I'd call it the fault of the DPS (especially if they don't use threat wipe abilities), if they know they're with a new or undergeared tank. They should be focus attacking, after all. Dark Knights and Warriors don't have much trouble with this, though it's common for new paladins to not constantly tab through enemies to check threat, and switch targets at the right time with their threat combos to maintain it.

In the case where this happens with an experienced tank:

-The DPS should use threat clearing abilities before it gets there
-The DPS should watch their focus target
-The DPS should recognize the class and its ability (or equipment / new status) to maintain AoE Aggro if AoEs are done

-The tank should have provoke ready
-The tank should have cover ready (Paladins)
-The tank should manage his/her resources for AoE threat (Mainly applies to DRK and WAR as paladin AoE threat is meh at best -- though they might Clemency at the wrong time when a flash is needed).

If a tank is having problems with a DPS just not caring and doing what they want, it may be prudent to mark targets. At that point, it will be 100% the DPS fault if they ignore said marks.

If it occurs in a raid situation, and you're still taking aggro even with using your threat dropping abilities, then it's just a crap tank that doesn't know how to use their stances (or something else is at work here such as a particular mechanic in the fight).


Healers also have to watch their aggro, as over-healing doubles the threat they are given through the system. New healers sometimes don't know about this mechanic and pull. There is also a hidden "first hit" mechanic that amplifies the threat of the first attack. It's subtle, but you may have seen this with Scholar healers and their fairies taking aggro even beyond a few smacks of a DPS or a Tank against the mob that is focused on it. There is also a delay in a mob switching targets. It may show they are focused on a tank, though they may be able to attack one or more times against their original target before finally switching.

[Steelbreeze]

DPS taking aggro has always been a mark of a poor dps. Whether or not it is also a sign of a poor tank is another matter. Enmity levels are easily visible in-game and if a dps does not want to take aggro then if he's good he won't, no matter how terrible the tank is.

[Chevronone]

DPS taking aggro has always been a mark of a poor dps. Whether or not it is also a sign of a poor tank is another matter. Enmity levels are easily visible in-game and if a dps does not want to take aggro then if he's good he won't, no matter how terrible the tank is.

Tell that to bard burst. It hits like a truck and happens so fast that there is no gradual climb in the enmity meter. Even with Quelling, you can literally take hate from a slightly under-geared or sub-par tank before they even have time to react.

You can only adjust your DPS so much before you're you've nerfed yourself into obscurity.

[Mhaeric]

9 times out of 10 in df, the tank will start running to boss, ill pop QS and begin casting my fire1. then tank suddenly stops. I cancel cast. they stand still for no reason. QS drops off. then we begin and I rip aggro

always entertaining

This isn't just a DPS vs. Tank thing either. I get this a lot with a pre-cast Adloquium. That thing lasts 30 seconds, and yet more times than I can count in a trial or a boss the tank waits until the last 2 or 3 seconds of the effect before pulling just as I start to recast it to replace the effect. I end up having to cancel the cast so I don't end up instantly pulling hate. It's like they think having Galvanize up on a pull behaves like a regen tick instead of a stoneskin or something. I can't explain the behaviour any other way. It's frustrating.

[Steelbreeze]

Tell that to bard burst. It hits like a truck and happens so fast that there is no gradual climb in the enmity meter. Even with Quelling, you can literally take hate from a slightly under-geared or sub-par tank before they even have time to react.

You can only adjust your DPS so much before you're you've nerfed yourself into obscurity.

That is why I phrased it in the manner that I did. A dps should know his or her capabilities. Sure, a bard's burst hits like a truck, but the bard should know that. At the end of the day you can only control your OWN character. If things don't go the way you want when you have control over it happening, that's simply poor play. Does it suck to be threat capped with an undergeared or inexperienced tank? Sure. Have I pulled aggro as a dps? Again, sure. However, when I am really sure I don't want to become the boss's punching bag, though, I make sure to avoid it.

[Celef]

So is this a thing now? Is it the dps's fault if the tank loses hate?

As a DPS, damages management by using CD or "mastering" your cycle is part of the job (at least that's what i've been told ever since i started MMOs) but as a Tank, it's your job to do everything possible to keep aggro by using stance, multi target aggro etc so i'de say :

- DPS not managing his damages while tank has his tank stance -> DPS fault, tank can't make miracles
- DPS managing his damages but Tank not having his tank stance -> Tanks fault, unless DPS stops attacking and /dances he can't help taking aggro
- DPS not managing AND tank not having his stance -> healer /suicide

But this is just my point of view