Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

[Yeol]

hate is everyone's responsibility in ff 14.

Agree.

Tanks have weapon skills to increase enmity, healers and dps have abilities to reduce it. Everyone is involved, everyone is responsible.

[Arcflare]

I often find it funny how lazy people can be in pugs. Tbh Tank's and DPS are supposed to have this mutual relationship where its "Im a good dps, i challenge you to hold hate off me" and "Im a good tank, i challenge you to rip hate off me." This how the relationships were in FFXI and tbh should stand to be true here. If a DPS rips hate and dies maybe the tank didnt try hard enough to keep hate, and if the dps cant get hate then hes free to wail on the target all he wants. I find it more fun to challenge a tank to test if they really know their job because i know when im with my friends its almost impossible for me to pull hate off them.

[Ilan]

I often find it funny how lazy people can be in pugs. Tbh Tank's and DPS are supposed to have this mutual relationship where its "Im a good dps, i challenge you to hold hate off me" and "Im a good tank, i challenge you to rip hate off me." This how the relationships were in FFXI and tbh should stand to be true here. If a DPS rips hate and dies maybe the tank didnt try hard enough to keep hate, and if the dps cant get hate then hes free to wail on the target all he wants. I find it more fun to challenge a tank to test if they really know their job because i know when im with my friends its almost impossible for me to pull hate off them.

If a dps uses ALL of his skills which includes the hate reducing skills and the tank loses hate, its the tanks fault and he didn't pay enough attention. These skills don't decrease the damage of a dps but it allows the tank to deal more dps because he can drop the tank stance. So if the dps and tanks not their jobs, both can deal higher dps since no one trys to grow his little Epeen and makes the tank spam his hate rotation like a fool.

[Lambdafish]

I'll just post what I posted in the Healer DPS thread, forgive the lack of context, but a lot of the info crosses over into tank dps as well.

The thread is asking "As a healer, what am I supposed to be doing?" and the answer to that is "whatever is the most important responsibility on each GCD", which is a responsibility shared across all roles (yes tanks sometimes heal, DPS sometimes manage enmity, and all three deal damage). Is everyone at full health? Then you should be DPSing, overhealing and idling helps nobody, just like as a tank I can ask myself "Do I have a sufficient lead in enmity?" if the answer is yes then I should be using my DPS rotations.

While you may be ok with the "letting people play how they want" mentality, all it does is excuse lazy play in group content, which drives player complacency up and overall skill level down. Then what happens is people cry on the forums when content actually gets hard (Pharos Sirius, Steps of Faith, Weeping City, all content that isn't that hard). This is a bigger issue than healer DPS though, and feeds into overall game difficulty and skill gaps throughout different content in the game, which is a hotly debated topic that people should be far more open minded and invested in.

[Inosaska]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

[Geist]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

Let's wait and see. I think the onus falls on both roles, though the tank should always provide the DPS with the necessary cues and attempt to achieve a viable combination (target positioning, pacing, and damage mitigation) the party can benefit from. At the same time, when playing as DPS we need to make our big numbers count: not just in terms of sheer damage being dished out, but also of impact and usefulness in that specific situation.

[Lambdafish]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

Except this will never be the case in a game that revolves around having two tanks, as only one tank can be on the boss at a time. They can't change the way things are from the job side, rather there needs to be far more for an OT to do other than DPS. (Also the difference in how much you get hit, and how much enmity is generated needs to be more extreme than it currently is in DPS stance.)

[Ilan]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

I remember back in the day where dpses were able to use all of their skills and not only a few. Tanks are there to keep the hits in their face, what they are doing anyway, there is no reason for a lazy dps to make his life more miserable as it already is. And just for your information: A higher overall dps is also a mitigation because the boss dies faster and the party takes less dmg overall. Guess what, that works with good dps players because they keep track of their hate and use their skills properly...

And as soon as dps players are really capable of dealing dps, the tanks can stop dealing dps if SE doesn't patch hard dps checks into content, that most players who complain about dpsing tanks will never see.

[MoarLegion]

Here's a tank's stance on this.

Enmity is everybody's job, but the balance is slightly skewed, say 80/20 Tank/DPS. Yes, its my job to generate and keep hate, but its your job to drop hate where you can. Ask yourself a simple question: When is having MORE enmity as a dps/healer ever a good thing? It creates an artificial cap on your overall potential. Quelling/Smoke/Elusive are raid DPS boosts, because it allows the tank to spend more time out of tank stance and allows DPS to keep going ham sandwich.

Consider it this way: You getting rid of something you don't want, gives me more of something I do want. Be nice to your tanks, they keep you from going squish.

These things said, if you're using hate reducing skills and still pulling off the tank, the tank is doing it wrong. I have more enmity generation than you do enmity reduction, and the onus is upon me to generate more than you can reduce. However, consider the investment for your hate management compared to mine.

BLM/SMN/BRD/MCH/NIN/DRG: Use a oGCD that in no way negatively effects your output. (For the DRG's complaining about Elusive, you can use it right before the boss jumps, or during phases where the boss is effectively immune. ((A9S after Faust dies but before he is melted, A10s during Spin to Win after the add is dead, A11S before limit cut.)

Investment in generating more hate as a tank:
-DRK: Grit costs 1.3k MP(75% of a dark arts), eats a GCD, reduces our damage by 20%, locks Blood weapon(less dark arts) and our enmity combo generates no MP(less dark arts).
-PLD: Eats a GCD, reduces damage by 15%, no Sword Oath double AA, and Rage of Halone is 90 potency loss over Royal Authority.
-WAR: 20% less DPS, locks Fell Cleave, but not a lot of downsides here.

Because of the DPS meta and benefits that high DPS brings(shorter fights and less mechanics), optimizing DPS output between mechanics is a major boon to clearing content, and all party members are responsible for that. There is zero DPS loss for popping quelling/smoke/elusive, there is a major DPS loss for going into tank stance and using enmity combos. Its the Tank's job to stay over DPS, but DPS have no excuse to not make it easier.

[Llus]

Here's a tank's stance on this.
Enmity is everybody's job <snip>

-WAR: 20% less DPS<snip>

Its the Tank's job to stay over DPS, but DPS have no excuse to not make it easier.

War: 25% less, deliverance gives a +5% to base

If you pull hate from a boss in the middle of a cleave, now heals have to catch up. This boils down to greedy players. Greedy tanks don't keep enmity, don't pull right or just don't give a F. Greedy healers staying in clerics too long waste MP and DPS by raising a dead tank or DPS when they hung them out to dry. Greedy DPS burst w/o using their enmity reducing skills, cleave the party, force the tank back into enmity generating mode and healers into fixing your mistake. This blame one group one week, another next and another next is an endless cycle. Your skills are there for a reason - Use them.

Ohh, and on a sidenote, Fellow WAR mains: Infuriate + Unchained your boss pulls please