The New Chat Restriction in The Feast

[worldofneil]

Have you forgotten what even started this thread? Far more people have spoken out against this than for it. If the opposite were true, the responses following this would be a lot more supportive and favorable, wouldn't you agree?

Sorry, but not really, no. People don't generally comment on things they're happy with. Just ask any customer services desk how many compliments they get compared to the number of complaints.

Those that have created posts saying how they like they removal of chat have been met with nothing but hostility and it's hardly incentive for other people to post the same.

The majority of players don't even come to the official forums though, let alone post on them.

At the time of writing, the post about the chat removal in the questions for the Live Letter thread has only 56 likes (and this is after having a thread created just to promote it) and I don't wish to cause any (more?) offence, but I don't think the hardcore PvP community is as big as people seem to think it is. I have no doubt it's at least in the hundreds, per datacenter, but how many people are actually playing this game? Hundreds of thousands?

Whilst PvP is fun, we need to remember that PvP is essentially a bolt-on to a PvE game. It is not the primary game mode here so naturally Square Enix is going to want to make it as appealing as possible to the majority of players. They also don't want to spend their time, resources and money (staff wages!) policing any more than they have to. It's not in their interests to ban players either so this gets around that for them too as no one can get in trouble any more.

And for the record, I've also been frustrated with the lack of chat and unable to convey my thoughts, but it feels a much more enjoyable experience than it did before, so personally I'm happier with it as it is now, but more phrases being added would be good. Heck if we could string sentences together using the auto translate that'd be nice, although I'm sure that'd probably get abused too.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Sorry, but not really, no. People don't generally comment on things they're happy with. Just ask any customer services desk how many compliments they get compared to the number of complaints.

Did you see this today?

And there's hardly a need for hostility when arguing against someone's points that overlook important factors or simply don't hold weight. The general argument of most in favor of the changes was that they were now interested in trying the Feast because they didn't have to worry about being harrassed or insulted. They said this as if it were a frequent and common thing. Many of us who DO PvP regularly spoke up and clarified that it was not as frequent as they implied. Some were a bit more rough in response, and I'm not defending them. I AM however defending a community that is constantly mislabeled and treated secondhand.

This isn't about community size either. You would never hear me say, for example, "Crafters are more important than Gatherers because there are more of them!" (This is purely conjecture, the statement could be reversed and still be just as wrong). Or perhaps that Raiders don't matter as much as Non-Raiders because they're a minority. To even think like that is bad business, and if a company would think like that, it's the fast track to losing those people entirely. Even if PvP was "bolted on" to this game, it's here and a community has formed that enjoys it. Once again, pointing to that community and saying "well, it's only you few, so we don't need to do as much for you" is all too dismissive. Want to be like that? Then I say "Well if there's only so few of us and we only get what little you feel we deserve, then I suppose it's fair I only pay you proportionally to what you offer me." Or are you going to say $15 from a PvE-only player is worth more than $15 from a PvP-only player?

The time, money, and resources argument is invalid as well. The same time, money, and resources would be spent on, say, an issue of harrassment between players that used to date, or a player who has a history of negative behavior in PvE content (language, vote kick abuse, disruptive behavior). So no, PvP is NOT different, nor needs to be treated differently. A player behaving badly is a player behaving badly regardless of where. The idea that the Feast deserved chat restrictions - as a smaller, less-frequented content - becomes invalid if we were to apply the earlier logic that because it's not big, it's not in their interest to handle it accordingly. If we're arguing that kind of logic, then PvE content deserves chat restrictions because it's bigger, and by that logic, has more offensive players who misuse chat and behave badly. . . But we know that kind of solution would never be considered valid or sensible would it? Why then is it fine for the Feast?

I have spoken on this time and again, and I hold quite firmly to my statements. If as a PvPer - and let it be known I too enjoy PvE, but I regularly enjoy PvP - am supposed to settle for being a second priority, then it would only make sense to pay a lower "second-priority" subscription fee. But that's not how it works. My feedback - and money - as a customer should be just as valuable whether I raid, gather, dance afk in town all day, or PvP.

[worldofneil]

Did you see this today?

I have now, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? A small comment about how they like the feast chat removal and you shooting it down straight away? That's exactly what I said was happening in my previous post...

And there's hardly a need for hostility when arguing against someone's points that overlook important factors or simply don't hold weight.

What one person deems important or what "holds weight" is different to another person. You have literally said you're dismissing their points because you think they're wrong.

The general argument of most in favor of the changes was that they were now interested in trying the Feast because they didn't have to worry about being harrassed or insulted. They said this as if it were a frequent and common thing. Many of us who DO PvP regularly spoke up and clarified that it was not as frequent as they implied.

The only ones with the actual data and chat logs are Square Enix. They're the only one who know how frequent it is. I can only speak from my own experiences, as can you or any other player.

This isn't about community size either. You would never hear me say, for example, "Crafters are more important than Gatherers because there are more of them!" (This is purely conjecture, the statement could be reversed and still be just as wrong). Or perhaps that Raiders don't matter as much as Non-Raiders because they're a minority. To even think like that is bad business, and if a company would think like that, it's the fast track to losing those people entirely.

Well I don't have any figures, but I feel fairly confident that the number of crafters/gatherers are considerably higher than the number of people who play PvP.

I'm sure from SE viewpoint they want all their players to matter, but they're in a no-win situation. They can either devote resources to clean up the chat/constantly police it/the players abusing it or they can just cut it off like they have and spend those resources on other things... new content perhaps?

Or are you going to say $15 from a PvE-only player is worth more than $15 from a PvP-only player?

No... $15 is worth... $15. You can do as much or as little as you want within the game with the options they have provided.

The time, money, and resources argument is invalid as well. The same time, money, and resources would be spent on, say, an issue of harrassment between players that used to date, or a player who has a history of negative behavior in PvE content (language, vote kick abuse, disruptive behavior).

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. With or without PvP reports they're still dealing with PvE reports. It's not like blocking feast chat somehow increases PvE reports. There's now no reason to report someone for harassment in the feast, therefore less reports to deal with.

If we're arguing that kind of logic, then PvE content deserves chat restrictions because it's bigger, and by that logic, has more offensive players who misuse chat and behave badly.

Over the 3 and a half years I've played I can probably count the amount of harassment and abuse that I've seen in PvE on a single hand. In the Feast before 3.5 I could reach that same count in 20 minutes. But that's my experience and maybe your experience is different, but you said "by that logic" so that implies that's not the case and you're just assuming that because PvE is bigger than PvP the same problems must scale up too.

I have spoken on this time and again, and I hold quite firmly to my statements. If as a PvPer - and let it be known I too enjoy PvE, but I regularly enjoy PvP - am supposed to settle for being a second priority, then it would only make sense to pay a lower "second-priority" subscription fee. But that's not how it works. My feedback - and money - as a customer should be just as valuable whether I raid, gather, dance afk in town all day, or PvP.

And I'm not saying you shouldn't try to stand up for what you believe in, but just don't shoot down everyone who doesn't agree with you.

[KusoWat]

And I'm not saying you shouldn't try to stand up for what you believe in, but just don't shoot down everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Scott, I have said this before, and I will respectfully say it again.

Everyone writes off your opinion because everyone knows you do not care about PvP AT ALL. I think it's fine that you don't care about PvP, but you have personally done enough damage to our community by spearheading the cause to take away the exclusivity of our rewards. Please understand that this change has a harsh negative effect on the competitiveness of The Feast, which is the only competitive PvP mode in this game.

Many (all) of the people in favor of this restriction are either players who do not care about PvP, or players brand new to PvP thanks to the GARO event, who cannot realistically understand just how bad this change is at a higher level.

[worldofneil]

Everyone writes off your opinion because everyone knows you do not care about PvP AT ALL.

I mean no disrespect, but I think you're giving me a lot more credit than I'm due. "Everyone"? There's probably less than 200 people who know of me and I think even that's probably being generous. I'm one fish in a very big pond.

I do care about PvP though, it's a fun game, but I do appreciate I'm not taking it as competitively as some of the players. I see it as something different from the main game and whilst it's great to win and I'll do my best, I'm not going to get torn up about it if I don't win every match.

you have personally done enough damage to our community by spearheading the cause to take away the exclusivity of our rewards.

I have nothing against PvP having exclusive rewards, I just had a problem with the minions being included in that. You might say what's the difference, but you don't collect minions. That's something I enjoy, PvP is something you enjoy. I felt strongly about it, I spoke up. Sorry that you took offence to that. We've yet to find out what the alternative methods to obtaining the minions will be, but at least now they'll actually obtainable (and not only a handful per datacenter...).

Many (all) of the people in favor of this restriction are either players who do not care about PvP, or players brand new to PvP thanks to the GARO event, who cannot realistically understand just how bad this change is at a higher level.

You might be right, I don't know, but the "lower" levels were so off-putting I imagine many of those players would never make it to the "higher" levels to find out.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I felt strongly about it, I spoke up

NOW you understand why this and all the other threads against the chat restriction exist, I hope.

We don't like this change. We didn't ask for it, and were completely surprised with it. When we spoke out, we were seemingly ignored and the change was pushed anyways. We foretold potential issues and problems it would cause, and they are happening now as we speak. And when we spoke up AGAIN for answers, once we finally got one, it barely addressed our concerns and seemed only aimed at trying to reinforce the change we don't like and didn't want besides. We speak up because we feel strongly about it, and speaking only for myself, I won't stop til I know I've been heard properly.

That said, going back from now to the Rep response, I've counted 24 very clear "remove quick chat/restore chat" responses. And that's just in the 8 pages that followed that response. This does not include repeat posts by anyone, nor does it include others that simply outlined the problems they've encountered with this change. And let me reiterate: this is just 24 responses in 8 pages. . . out of 49.

There's your feedback, SE. Let's drop the pretenses and follow through properly here:
- The majority of people that do not support the change are regular PvPers
- The majority of people that support the change are NOT regular PvPers
- There are pages and pages of people asking, requesting, explaining, and nearly demanding the removal of this terrible system.
- Where other matters were answered far more quickly, this was addressed, poorly, 3 months and 41 pages later. This is unacceptable.
- We do not wish to help improve this quick chat system. We wish to have it removed. Let me be clear in saying it again, and let there be no mistake in ANY future responses: We do not wish to help improve this quick chat system. We wish to have it REMOVED.

It is time to move on this, and not stall with patronizing attempts to gather feedback. You have 49 pages in one single thread in the PvP section. And there are multiple threads all calling for the same thing. And it's been 3 MONTHS. As small as this PvP community apparently is, there can be little valid reason to go seeking even more feedback after all this.