Thread: 3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

Originally Posted by Fenral

Did you? I thought was agreeing with you...

(But no unsympathetic villain can top Satou from Ajin. Seriously. The entire world is his video game and he's the player with an infinite number of extra lives.)

I dunno, man.

(Terumi is probably worse. On top of not caring one lick about anything but his own goals, he literally sustains his existence by having people hate and fear him - and delights in making them do so by physically and mentally torturing them. As a ghost in his natural state, he is literally unkillable until magic shenanigans happen. Having lived through thousands if not millions of years of looped time and retained knowledge from every single one, he knows exactly how to push the cast's buttons for maximum sadism points. That sadism also carries over to his fighting style, which is based around rapid, multiple hits that deal light damage and includes vicious moves like stomping on downed enemies and dunking them into the floor. That said his ultimate goal, freedom, is sympathetic - unfortunately to him that means "kill God, destroy the world and recreate it in my own image.")

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I agree with Belhi: I didn't see the message of 3.0 - 3.3 being this at all. It didn't seem to be saying that vengeance is bad, but rather how you choose to pursue your vengeance determines whether you're bad or not. We were presented with at least two characters utterly devoted to vengeance: Nidhogg and Estinien. Estinien was presented as a very sympathetic character, and Nidhogg as a villain.

...

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message.

The main theme of Heavensward was the cycle of revenge.

The Dragonsong War was kicked off and perpetuated by Nidhogg's vengeance. In retaliation for Ratatoskr's death he declared endless war on Ishgard, sadistically letting them live so they could rebuild and nearly be destroyed time and again, forever. In doing so he caused the deaths of countless Ishgardians and Dravanians alike, further entrenching their mutual hatred of each other and leading to a never-ending spiral of revenge. It was only by learning the whole truth that we were able to get Hraesvelgr to believe once more, and in doing so overcame the hatred (manifested as apathy instead of Nidhogg's wrath) that had consumed him as well - allowing us to triumph over Nidhogg's revenge in the very end. We broke the cycle.

Learning the whole truth is also an important theme, as most of Ishgard and the Heretics were running on half-baked ideals constructed from partial truths or outright lies.

Estinien isn't portrayed as bad for seeking vengeance (which I'm personally chalking up to values dissonance), but his lack of hesitation to threaten the dragons during our trip is. He reserves his hatred for Nidhogg, but will not hesitate to strike down or at least threaten any dragon that so much as looks at him the wrong way. Even after achieving his vengeance Estinien states that it feels empty - he is not fulfilled until after we have defeated King Thordan, ending both progenitors of the war in a sense and securing peace for Ishgard. It is only then that he feels a sense of comfort and relief. (How dramatically ironic.)

Originally Posted by Alacran

On the topic of main theme of Heavensward, i always felt it was simply that one should not be held accountable for sins of the father. While i can not speak for the other two jobs introduced, i feel the Dark Knight post 60 quest line touched upon this sentiment to an extent.

That is true, but one could argue that because modern Ishgardians were held accountable for the sins of their forebears, they committed sins themselves (killing dragons). Granted I don't blame them for doing so when it's life and death (kind of hard to blame people for fighting for their right to live even if they know it's the morally wrong choice after inFAMOUS 2), but even so - Ishgardians killing Dravanians leads to Dravanians killing Ishgardians leading to Ishgardians killing Dravanians. And so the cycle would have spun on forever.

Not that Nidhogg really cared who or how many died.

Only by rooting out and eliminating the propagators and perpetuators of the cycle - Nidhogg and King Thordan - were we able to end it.

Originally Posted by Belhi

I would argue that one main difference between Estinien and Nidhogg's vengeance is how all consuming it was and how it was directed.

While Estinien is more moderate in his stance, the ultimate fact of the matter is that in getting him to succumb to vengeance Nidhogg had already won. Nidhogg's goal was to get Ishgard to loathe and hate him so he would be "justified" in killing even modern Ishgardians who had nothing to do with King Thordan's sin (because they "hadn't learned" from it).

After learning the truth and killing Nidhogg, Estinien lets go of his hate and rage (stating his vengeance feels empty). Nidhogg, on the other hand, persists after his death solely through those same emotions.

While Estinien is not as far gone as Nidhogg, the man himself notes there are strong similarities between them (endless grief giving way to unrelenting waves of rancor, or something to that effect). And while Estinien is not as obsessed with vengeance as Nidhogg, he is far from personable and only softens up after achieving his empty vengeance.

EDIT
The key difference between Estinien and Nidhogg is that, while both are driven by vengeance, Estinien also places the safety of Ishgard high on his list of priorities - higher than vengeance, if his willingness to at least try and reach a peaceful resolution to the war is any indication. Nidhogg, on the other hand, fell so far that absolutely nothing is more important to him than getting revenge on Ishgard - he will cross any line and do anything for it. It's also important to remember that Estinien's hatred is limited an individual (though he doesn't hesitate to threaten any and every dragon that looks at him sideways), while Nidhogg's extends to Ishgard as a nation, not any individual.

Estinien may have given up his vengeance if it meant safety for kin and country; Nidhogg actually attacks his own kin for getting in the way of his revenge. The difference between the two, while subtle, is clear as night and day.

I'm guessing 4.X for Estinien. At least Yoshida has acknowledged the worry that he'd drop off the face of the earth and never be mentioned again, as has become the expectation for most (non-1.0-throwback) characters after their story arc.

Well... let's get the 3.5 speculation a going again eh?

NEW IMAGES!!!!!!
http://www.4gamer.net/games/278/G027...t.html?num=021


That hair... she seems like another Moenbryda? PLEASE DON'T JUST KILL HER OFF SE! I wanna know more :3 (I also want that hair lol)


Well this raises some flags... I wonder why they're all together (even Ishgard) maybe time to storm Ala Mihgo? about the Empire? Celebrating Kan-E-Senna's Bday? Who knows?! lol
Though I'd haveta guess one of the first two lol.



Hmmm... I hope this isn't a bad thing as to why he has that out and looks like in the middle of a confrontation too >.<


Well... that just opens up a wormhole and possibilities! Either DRK or.. generic great sword user :3




I know it's just gonna be a dungeon... but this place looks SOOOO COOL! I'm so excited!


Retro steampunk Magitek?! WHAT IS THIS SORCERY!!!!!!!!


FFXIII Ochu... wha? lol This is neat.




Looks nice, but still wanted my Snowcloak HM instead ; ;


Looks like a bad Bioshock/Silent Hill crossover. Not sure how I feel about this set of gear...





Zurvan intrigues me, I'm really excited to see his story, more about him as a whole, and the whole over arching story of the Warring Triad!

Since they already have Ochu's in the game from FFXI I wonder what they're going to call the model ripped XIII one? Will they acknowledge it as an Ochu? Guess I'll have to find out.