Thread: 3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

On the topic of "lone wolf" Estinien, I think it's a mistake to pigeonhole him so neatly. He really is quite a remarkable character in how he defies the stereotypes associated with him! Time and again, he's surprised me by behaving like a sensible human being, whereas his character type would normally make all kinds of irrational decisions. Just a few of the ways in which he defies the vengeance-obsessed lone wolf tropes:

- He wants vengeance against Nidhogg - and ONLY Nidhogg. He does not discriminate against other dragons, in spite of the fact that nearly the entire nation of Ishgard does.
- He's willing to behave in a civil (if snarky) fashion around Ysayle, in spite of the fact that she allies herself with dragons (and, at one time, with Nidhogg himself).
- He recognizes the failings of his superiors, who are at least somewhat corrupt, in spite of the fact that they provide him with tools and authority to hunt the target of his vengeance, and does not show them blind loyalty.
- At no point does he declare that we're holding him back, only to go off on his own and get his butt handed to him.
- As a corollary, when we finally do face Nidhogg, he does not even for a moment entertain the thought of taking on the Wyrm alone. He has no insistence that he be the only one to defeat him; as long as Nidhogg gets dead, it's all fine by him.

So many opportunities for eye-rollingly pointless drama averted! My hat is definitely off to the writers at SE for the development of Estinien's character. I never expected it - particularly since, pre-Heavensward, he DID show a few of these regrettable traits during the Dragoon job questline (arguably, due to Nidhogg's influence through the Eye, something he apparently managed to get under control by the time Heavensward rolled around).

Originally Posted by Theodric

I wouldn't say the Garleans are 'incompetent' given that they took control of much of Hydaelyn within a rather short period of time.

This is part of the problem, and a big component as to why I think the Garleans were very poorly presented in the storyline. We know that Garlemand has conquered most of the planet in the backstory - but their consistent failure in the present story makes it a hard backstory to swallow. I know that the Garleans were a bit scarier in 1.0, but sadly (or happily) I wasn't around for that unfortunate stage of this game's life.

Also, being helpless before the WoL's indomitability is only part of the problem - the storyline makes it clear that even if they HAD curbstomped the WoL (especially if they had, in fact), the plans they were working on STILL would have blown up in their faces in a big way. If Nael had succeeded in crashing Dalamud, Bahamut still would have hatched (and this WAS supported by the higher-ups, albeit indirectly; Gaius protested Nael's project, but was overruled, indicating that the folks in charge had Nael's back), only nobody would have been alive to curb the dragon's wrath. The Ascians would have gotten Gaius's Ultima Weapon to go berserk eventually - it was a big part of the reason they led him to it in the first place, after all.

So, really, the problem is in three parts: The Garleans can't win, the tactics the Garleans choose to try to win are ludicrously self-destructive, and the Garleans won't acknowledge that their methods are ludicrously self-destructive.

I feel like the Garleans being in way over there head is kinda the point. Like the second they get to Eorzea the depth of what there dealing with changes. They get used and toyed with by factions who understand whats going on WAY better then them. There not used to a place like it, so they make wayyy more mistakes.

Meanwhile Thordan knows way more and does a lot of damage with way less time and is never a puppet

I kinda feel like Garlemald's incompetence is being a bit over-stated, here; the only times that they as a nation have outright failed, it's been to circumstances far beyond their actual control. They had no reason to expect Midgardsormr at Silvertear, nor for Dalamud to contain Bahamut. And, since then, they've been holding off on the Eorzean campaign entirely (Gaius being effectively rogue in ARR), choosing to wait until they have a solid method of dealing with the Primals before starting to throw troops at it again. Far from "ludicrously self-destructive", they're playing it safe until they're sure they have a winning hand.

Obviously, they can't win, narrative-wise. But I think the story has done a reasonable job of placing them in the position they're in without being at odds with their otherwise world-conqueror nature.

The Garleans issue isn't incompetence as much as over confidence. They take dangerous and often reckless actions which either are potentially very high risk or open to critical sabotage. Much of this is due to a hubris and arrogant certainty in their ability. They see the Allag and the great heights they achieved, but the current culture doesn't seem to have picked up on the mistakes the Allag made that lead to its downfall.

The Garleans come across as driven, creative, industrious and very pragmatic. The biggest thing that keeps us from working with them is their arrogance, hubris and annoying obsession with conquering everyone. If we can work with Ishgard we can work with Garlemald.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Garlean Empire didn't have humble origins. EVERY nation has humble origins; none pops into existence as a sprawling, global power. (Though, I suppose, Israel comes close.)

While they may have started as a small nation that got bullied by its neighbors, the fact that after it grew into a ginormous nation it started bullying ITS neighbors removes any potential sympathy I might have had for them. It's clear that they're after more than just the lands they were originally forced out of. And even if that's all they wanted... well whether they actually have the right to conquer a people who have lived on lands for generations, simply because the lands they live on once belonged to Garleans in ages past, is quite the debate in and of itself.

The fact that they were forced into harsher climes and became a technological superpower is interesting, to be sure, and reflects some theories in real life as to why Europe was where modern technology has most of its roots.